Institutional Web Management Workshop 2005: Whose Web Is It Anyway?
IRC Logs


A log of the IRC channel used during the Institutional Web Management Workshop 2005 is given below.

Testing before Start of Workshop - 5 July 2005

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jul 5 14:55:09 2005
Jul 05 14:56:30 ---Em_Tonkin has changed the topic to: Chat About IWMW
Jul 05 16:46:38 -->Greg_Tourte (meep@rox-2AA76B54.ukoln.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 05 17:13:51 -->Andy (8a269248@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 05 17:14:07 <Greg_Tourte>hello andy
Jul 05 17:14:14 <Andy>hello
Jul 05 17:15:31 <--Andy has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 05 17:18:54 -->AndyP (a.powell@rox-7C41489F.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 05 17:19:00 <AndyP>hello
Jul 05 17:19:20 -->Andy (8a269248@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 05 17:19:22 <Greg_Tourte>hello again
Jul 05 17:19:40 <--Andy has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC 0.5.4 (2004/01/29))
Jul 05 17:20:57 <--AndyP (a.powell@rox-7C41489F.bath.ac.uk) has left #iwmw-2005
Jul 05 18:44:48 -->CGI189 (c13c9937@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 05 18:45:05 <CGI189>Hi Greg, Emma
Jul 05 18:45:48 <--CGI189 has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
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Jul 05 21:36:43 -->CGI562 (522149e4@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
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Jul 06 00:08:48 -->undefined (522149e4@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005

First day - 6 July 2005

Jul 06 00:09:47 <undefined>foo
Jul 06 00:09:57 ---undefined is now known as Greg
Jul 06 00:10:05 <Greg>fii
Jul 06 00:10:37 <Greg>anybody home?
Jul 06 00:10:48 <--Greg has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC 0.5.4 (2004/01/29))
Jul 06 00:55:57 -->CGI355 (522149e4@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 00:57:24 <CGI355>foo
Jul 06 00:57:36 <CGI355>:-P
Jul 06 01:56:22 <--CGI355 has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 06 01:56:31 -->greg (522149e4@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 01:57:04 <--greg has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 06 01:58:06 -->CGI173 (522149e4@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 01:58:53 <CGI173>foo
Jul 06 01:59:00 ---CGI173 is now known as Greg
Jul 06 02:00:02 <Greg>:-P
Jul 06 02:00:11 <--Greg has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 06 11:11:34 -->BrianK (8a26c06f@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 11:13:09 <BrianK>Hello world
Jul 06 11:13:18 <--BrianK has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 06 11:13:32 -->BrianK (c24217ac@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 11:14:36 <BrianK>testing
Jul 06 11:36:53 -->EmTonkin (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 11:37:10 <EmTonkin>Testing?
Jul 06 11:37:18 <--EmTonkin has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 06 11:38:20 -->CGI473 (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 11:38:28 ---CGI473 is now known as EmTonkin
Jul 06 11:52:05 -->savs (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 11:52:10 <savs>Hello Brian!
Jul 06 11:52:11 <EmTonkin>well hello :-)
Jul 06 11:52:19 <savs>ah, no brian
Jul 06 11:52:24 <savs>Hello EmTonkin ;-)
Jul 06 11:55:54 <--EmTonkin has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 06 11:56:05 -->EmTonkin (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 11:56:09 <EmTonkin>That's better
Jul 06 11:56:16 <EmTonkin>silly *"(*&£"!! irc server
Jul 06 11:56:24 <EmTonkin>'maxclients' was set to five from one IP
Jul 06 11:56:55 -->CGI333 (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 11:57:02 <--CGI333 has quit (Quit: CGI333)
Jul 06 11:57:41 -->CGI932 (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 11:57:45 <EmTonkin>Testing testing 1 2 3 :-)
Jul 06 11:58:10 <CGI932>testing (ditto)
Jul 06 11:58:11 <savs>brb
Jul 06 11:58:15 <EmTonkin>excellent!
Jul 06 11:58:20 <CGI932>:)
Jul 06 11:58:20 <savs>what port's this on? 8080?
Jul 06 11:58:26 <EmTonkin>err...
Jul 06 11:58:46 <EmTonkin>the actual irc server is behind the UKOLN firewall...
Jul 06 11:58:49 <savs>or, put another way, any idea what ports -are- open? ;-)
Jul 06 11:58:55 <savs>(want to set up an ssh tunnel)
Jul 06 11:59:09 <EmTonkin>ah... the irc server itself is on port 6667
Jul 06 11:59:37 <EmTonkin>if you can ssh tunnel into the ukoln network, you can point to that from 6667 on localhost and it 'ought to' work
Jul 06 11:59:39 -->CGI144 (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 12:00:54 <CGI144>Excellent - got this working
Jul 06 12:00:55 <--EmTonkin has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
Jul 06 12:01:10 <--CGI144 has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 06 12:01:22 -->MilesB (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 12:01:23 <CGI932>ttfn
Jul 06 12:01:48 <MilesB>Bysie Bye - catch you later
Jul 06 12:01:57 <--MilesB has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 06 12:02:01 -->EmTonkin (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 12:02:06 <--CGI932 has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 06 12:02:17 <EmTonkin>That was interesting... it seems the conference wifi logged me out
Jul 06 12:02:35 <savs>skype doesn't want to play ...
Jul 06 12:02:44 <savs>ah, there we go
Jul 06 12:03:25 <EmTonkin>so many technologies, so slow a typing speed :O
Jul 06 12:05:11 <--savs has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 06 12:11:55 <EmTonkin>Testing...
Jul 06 12:12:32 <EmTonkin>Here comes Brian again...?
Jul 06 12:13:13 -->BrianKelly (c13c9934@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 12:13:13 -->Sarika_R (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 12:13:17 <EmTonkin>Yay!
Jul 06 12:13:17 -->ajs (c2421769@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 12:13:19 <EmTonkin>hello Brian!
Jul 06 12:13:31 <ajs>no, andrew savory
Jul 06 12:13:36 ---ajs is now known as AndrewSavory
Jul 06 12:13:43 <EmTonkin>you can change your name with /NICK
Jul 06 12:13:46 <AndrewSavory>type /nick FooBar
Jul 06 12:13:48 <EmTonkin>as in /nick Emma
Jul 06 12:13:51 ---EmTonkin is now known as EmmaTest
Jul 06 12:13:54 ---EmmaTest is now known as EmTonkin
Jul 06 12:14:34 <EmTonkin>you are being logged :)
Jul 06 12:14:48 -->CGI112 (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 12:14:49 -->chrisl (c242166a@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 12:15:04 <AndrewSavory>EmTonkin: is the ukoln irc server accessible to the outside world with regular clients?
Jul 06 12:15:10 <EmTonkin>alas, no...
Jul 06 12:15:10 -->DavidCupit (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 12:15:18 <AndrewSavory>ok, never mind
Jul 06 12:15:19 <--CGI112 (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has left #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 12:15:20 <EmTonkin>I am going to have to persuade UKOLN to open the port with password
Jul 06 12:15:28 <EmTonkin>but it isn't an easy sell in these paranoid days
Jul 06 12:15:35 <Greg_Tourte>mind if I join in?
Jul 06 12:15:45 <EmTonkin>oh feel free! the more the merrier
Jul 06 12:15:58 <Greg_Tourte>hello!:-)
Jul 06 12:16:06 -->Steeley (c242166e@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 12:16:14 -->MichaelWilcox (c242176a@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 12:16:15 <EmTonkin>introduce yourself, greg...
Jul 06 12:16:19 ---Steeley is now known as Stuart-Steele
Jul 06 12:16:31 ---Stuart-Steele is now known as STuart_Steele
Jul 06 12:16:36 -->CGI894 (c242179f@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 12:17:00 <CGI894>can I use chatzilla to get here? it asks me what network to attach to
Jul 06 12:17:05 <EmTonkin>sadly not :(
Jul 06 12:17:12 <Greg_Tourte>I am Greg Tourte (as my nick siggests). I am one of the system administrators at UKOLN
Jul 06 12:17:21 <EmTonkin>greg, can you have a chat with andy about whether we could open one of the IRC ports for a while?
Jul 06 12:17:25 <CGI894>so the only way is to use this cgi thing?
Jul 06 12:17:27 <EmTonkin>it would be really handy
Jul 06 12:17:28 <Greg_Tourte>ok
Jul 06 12:17:34 <EmTonkin>we can password it...
Jul 06 12:17:47 <STuart_Steele>apparently so
Jul 06 12:17:49 <EmTonkin>at the moment the only way is the cgi thing
Jul 06 12:18:01 <Greg_Tourte>ok.
Jul 06 12:18:06 <EmTonkin>it could be worse... it could be IRCII
Jul 06 12:18:12 <Greg_Tourte>I am asking bucs to open the port
Jul 06 12:18:14 <--MichaelWilcox has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 06 12:18:15 <CGI894>i feel funny. i have never used irc before. when does the rash start
Jul 06 12:18:16 <EmTonkin>cool
Jul 06 12:18:17 <AndrewSavory>yup, if 6667 was open we could use desktop clients, which is less stress on the webserver ...
Jul 06 12:18:20 <EmTonkin>yes
Jul 06 12:18:23 <EmTonkin>I would prefer it
Jul 06 12:18:24 <Greg_Tourte>will come back to you as soon as it is done
Jul 06 12:18:27 <EmTonkin>cheers
Jul 06 12:18:33 <--Sarika_R (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has left #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 12:18:46 <--CGI894 has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC 0.5.7 (2005/06/19))
Jul 06 12:18:48 <STuart_Steele>Laters everyone...
Jul 06 12:18:54 <--STuart_Steele has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC 0.5.7 (2005/06/19))
Jul 06 12:19:53 <--chrisl has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
Jul 06 12:20:39 <EmTonkin>brb in a few then chaps? cheers :)
Jul 06 12:21:07 <AndrewSavory>ttfn!
Jul 06 12:22:50 *Greg_Tourte has just asked the techies at Bath to open the irc server to outside connections
Jul 06 12:23:18 <EmTonkin>ok
Jul 06 12:23:20 <--DavidCupit (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has left #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 12:23:23 <EmTonkin>did they say anything yet?
Jul 06 12:23:38 <EmTonkin>like YOU MUST BE JOKING??? for example?
Jul 06 12:23:41 <Greg_Tourte>so hopefully, you should at some point be able to connect to the network using your prefered software instead of the cgi interface
Jul 06 12:23:47 <EmTonkin>yay!
Jul 06 12:24:09 <AndrewSavory>cool
Jul 06 12:24:11 <Greg_Tourte>Em, we are talking about BUCS here, leave them some time
Jul 06 12:24:16 <EmTonkin>I am afraid that the cgiirc interface is not much loved :)
Jul 06 12:24:21 <EmTonkin>or rather :(
Jul 06 12:24:26 <AndrewSavory>so, around about next friday? ;-)
Jul 06 12:24:32 <EmTonkin>you're an optimist
Jul 06 12:24:39 <EmTonkin>it'll be UKOLN's christmas present
Jul 06 12:24:46 <AndrewSavory>hehe
Jul 06 12:25:08 <EmTonkin>(insert obligatory complaint about tech services here)
Jul 06 12:25:27 <EmTonkin>I dunno, even I beat them up and I am a techie. How disloyal of me.
Jul 06 12:26:02 <AndrewSavory>right, in search of food ...
Jul 06 12:26:05 <--AndrewSavory has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC 0.5.7 (2005/06/19))
Jul 06 12:26:08 *EmTonkin wonders what we are supposed to be doing now
Jul 06 12:26:11 <EmTonkin>food, presumably
Jul 06 12:26:16 <Greg_Tourte>I guess so
Jul 06 12:26:20 <EmTonkin>brb in a few I guess then greg... ;)
Jul 06 12:26:31 <Greg_Tourte>ok
Jul 06 12:26:36 <Greg_Tourte>bon appetit!!
Jul 06 12:28:47 <EmTonkin>merci!!
Jul 06 12:28:54 <--EmTonkin has quit (Quit: Yummy Yummy Food)
Jul 06 12:32:01 -->CGI716 (d9892405@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
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Jul 06 13:02:36 -->MilesB (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
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Jul 06 13:05:42 -->CGI475 (c242179f@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:05:48 -->AndrewSavory (c2421769@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:05:56 <AndrewSavory>Aloha!
Jul 06 13:05:57 -->Stuart_Steele (c242166e@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:06:44 <Stuart_Steele>test
Jul 06 13:08:39 <CGI475>blimey. the Olympics are coming to London
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Jul 06 13:09:15 -->EmTonkin (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:09:18 <EmTonkin>hello
Jul 06 13:09:29 <EmTonkin>good grief, what happened to all the other characters on here
Jul 06 13:09:42 <--EmTonkin has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
Jul 06 13:09:49 -->Sarika_R (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
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Jul 06 13:09:58 <EmTonkin>hello???
Jul 06 13:10:07 <Sarika_R>hi
Jul 06 13:10:21 *EmTonkin pokes the IRC server
Jul 06 13:10:31 <EmTonkin>Behave!
Jul 06 13:11:57 -->AndrewSavory (c2421769@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:12:27 <EmTonkin>hi again
Jul 06 13:12:31 <EmTonkin>good lunch?
Jul 06 13:12:36 <AndrewSavory>hiya. yeah, not bad
Jul 06 13:12:44 <AndrewSavory>samosas were fantastic
Jul 06 13:14:23 <AndrewSavory>hmm, is there a list of where the 9 were? I can't remember how many i've been to ;-)
Jul 06 13:14:40 <Em_Tonkin>now that's a good question to which I have no answer
Jul 06 13:14:49 <AndrewSavory>ahha - http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/web-focus/events/workshops/
Jul 06 13:15:00 <Em_Tonkin>excellent!
Jul 06 13:15:07 <AndrewSavory>ok, this is my fifth then
Jul 06 13:15:20 -->MilesB (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:15:24 <AndrewSavory>hi Miles
Jul 06 13:15:31 <MilesB>Hello there
Jul 06 13:15:34 <EmTonkin>afternoon :)
Jul 06 13:15:47 <MilesB>I think I can claim seven IWMWs!
Jul 06 13:16:02 <AndrewSavory>only 5 here
Jul 06 13:16:03 <EmTonkin>a definite contender, then
Jul 06 13:16:13 *EmTonkin is a newbie
Jul 06 13:16:20 <EmTonkin>this is my first
Jul 06 13:16:48 <MilesB>Newcastle, Bath, Belfast, Kent, Goldsmith's, Strathclyde, Manchester
Jul 06 13:17:00 -->CGI475 (c242179f@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:18:00 <AndrewSavory>Goldsmith's, Bath, Belfast, Strathclyde, Manchester
Jul 06 13:19:25 <CGI475>thats only 5. wasnt the cut off number 6?
Jul 06 13:19:54 ---CGI475 is now known as Sebastian
Jul 06 13:20:09 <AndrewSavory>ah, hello Sebastian
Jul 06 13:20:26 <AndrewSavory>can't connect to the jabber service ... bloomin' proprietary macos clients, bah
Jul 06 13:20:36 <EmTonkin>ah... I was wondering who CGI475 was
Jul 06 13:20:43 *EmTonkin can't connect to jabber either
Jul 06 13:20:57 <Sebastian>i am a number not a name
Jul 06 13:20:57 <EmTonkin>I think the ports are still blocked on the university network
Jul 06 13:21:30 <--Sebastian has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 06 13:21:32 <AndrewSavory>i'm connected to the regular jabber server, just can't get to the one brian listed, private.jabber.org
Jul 06 13:21:36 -->CGI894 (c242179f@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:21:38 <--CGI894 has quit (Quit: CGI894)
Jul 06 13:21:40 <EmTonkin>a new word coined... "incentivizing"
Jul 06 13:21:40 -->CGI894 (c242179f@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:21:49 <--CGI894 has quit (Quit: CGI894)
Jul 06 13:22:40 <MilesB>incentivizing is not new but is horribe!
Jul 06 13:22:48 <MilesB>Goes with diarizing
Jul 06 13:22:49 -->CGI894 (c242179f@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:22:52 <AndrewSavory>http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/
Jul 06 13:23:04 ---CGI894 is now known as Sebastian
Jul 06 13:23:09 <EmTonkin>AndrewSavory : you spammer you :)
Jul 06 13:23:17 <AndrewSavory>hehe
Jul 06 13:23:25 *EmTonkin <= bad sense of humour, sorry
Jul 06 13:24:04 <AndrewSavory>i'm limited in the jokes i can make if this channel is logged ;-)
Jul 06 13:24:07 <--Sarika_R (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has left #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:24:57 <AndrewSavory>coo: Stats
Jul 06 13:25:07 -->CGI209 (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:25:09 <AndrewSavory>3433 blogs at warwick
Jul 06 13:25:19 <EmTonkin>!
Jul 06 13:25:25 <MilesB>Thats pretty good take-up
Jul 06 13:25:38 <EmTonkin>yes it is
Jul 06 13:25:43 <CGI209>how do you change your screen name?
Jul 06 13:25:49 <EmTonkin>you type /nick mynewnick
Jul 06 13:25:50 <AndrewSavory>type /nick FooBar
Jul 06 13:26:11 ---CGI209 is now known as FooBar
Jul 06 13:26:18 <FooBar>thanks
Jul 06 13:26:19 <Sebastian>well that helps a lot
Jul 06 13:26:23 <AndrewSavory>rofl
Jul 06 13:26:26 ---FooBar is now known as Tim
Jul 06 13:27:00 <AndrewSavory>i'd love to know what proportion of universities have blogs, and how many have a policy on blogging
Jul 06 13:27:03 <Sebastian>if your second name is Berners Lee, I claim my geek prize
Jul 06 13:27:07 <EmTonkin>hehe
Jul 06 13:27:09 <MilesB>No blogs at Kent
Jul 06 13:27:19 <MilesB>No CMS at Kent
Jul 06 13:27:23 <MilesB>No portals at Kent
Jul 06 13:27:30 <MilesB>I could go on ...
Jul 06 13:27:31 <Tim>none at City
Jul 06 13:27:35 <Sebastian>oxford has no central facilities so how would we know
Jul 06 13:27:45 <EmTonkin>I don't think Bath has a policy... I think Birmingham don't allow any blogs at all, though I could easily be wholly wrong.
Jul 06 13:27:47 <Tim>city has free web space tho
Jul 06 13:28:06 <EmTonkin>Bristol just gave me a piece of web space with no server-side abilities whatsoever
Jul 06 13:28:38 <Sebastian>http://ramble.oucs.ox.ac.uk/blog/index.jsp is a poject for student blogging at Oxford, based on PDAs
Jul 06 13:28:55 -->CGI036 (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:29:14 <EmTonkin>based I think on the principle that they audited the code written by their CS staff and found hundreds of crippling security flaws, so they chose to solve the problem by simply disallowing code.
Jul 06 13:29:42 <EmTonkin>I don't know why they don't introduce some prebuilt stuff, though.
Jul 06 13:29:51 <Sebastian>if Oracle was open source they could have audited the code of the financials and found the security flaws too
Jul 06 13:29:58 <EmTonkin>yes :)
Jul 06 13:30:12 <Tim>you can see why tho emtonkin, that's why blogs may be better = easier
Jul 06 13:30:24 <EmTonkin>yes I can see that quite well
Jul 06 13:31:02 <Sebastian>can it be assumed that blogs and wikis are not inherently more security-flawed than other web apps?
Jul 06 13:31:09 <EmTonkin>hm.
Jul 06 13:31:21 <EmTonkin>tough question actually.
Jul 06 13:31:40 -->CGI110 (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:31:42 <Tim>will unis be service providers in the future then?
Jul 06 13:31:43 <--CGI036 has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
Jul 06 13:31:44 <EmTonkin>on the one hand, they're presumably not inherently worse. But blogs particularly are actually quite complex...
Jul 06 13:31:59 <Tim>after life long e-mail now lifelong blog??
Jul 06 13:32:19 <EmTonkin>thus for example I noticed yesterday that a flaw in an XML library == security flaws in most common blogging software
Jul 06 13:32:36 <Sebastian>what was the flaw, he said, sweating.
Jul 06 13:32:47 <EmTonkin>php exec() call I believe
Jul 06 13:32:50 <Tim>but that's an issue for the providers of the software rather than individual students
Jul 06 13:33:17 <Sebastian>eh? thats not an XML library then. i thought you meant a flaw in libxml2
Jul 06 13:33:21 <EmTonkin>http://www.auscert.org.au/render.html?it=5222
Jul 06 13:33:37 <EmTonkin>Confirmed flaws exist in two XML-RPC libraries for PHP allowing an
Jul 06 13:33:37 <EmTonkin>attacker to remotely execute arbitrary code. These XML-RPC libraries
Jul 06 13:33:37 <EmTonkin>are used by many popular PHP applications.
Jul 06 13:33:53 <EmTonkin>it's a PHP flaw in the end
Jul 06 13:34:00 <EmTonkin>like so many, many things.
Jul 06 13:34:01 <--CGI110 has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
Jul 06 13:34:03 <AndrewSavory>there's a moral about PHP usage in there somewhere ;-)
Jul 06 13:34:20 <EmTonkin>what, "Check input before trusting it"?
Jul 06 13:34:25 <AndrewSavory>ooh! ooh! Randy's reading email! what was it I'm supposed to shout out? :-) :-)
Jul 06 13:34:26 <Sebastian>its like flaws in M'soft, its a function of widespread use.
Jul 06 13:34:42 *AndrewSavory hides his mail app
Jul 06 13:34:55 <Sebastian>he won't be able to send email anyway using his app
Jul 06 13:35:01 *EmTonkin blinks
Jul 06 13:35:10 <EmTonkin>incidentally... not to briefly drop off-topic, good news:
Jul 06 13:35:19 <EmTonkin>at least, possibly good news, depending on who you are.
Jul 06 13:35:37 <EmTonkin>EU parliament just voted to reject the software patents directive.
Jul 06 13:36:00 <AndrewSavory>Excellent!
Jul 06 13:36:02 <MilesB>Cool - but did we win the Olympic bid
Jul 06 13:36:05 <EmTonkin>oh no, now I have an urge to blog about it :)
Jul 06 13:36:09 <MilesB>Sorry
Jul 06 13:36:21 *AndrewSavory isn't blogging at the moment. At all. Oh, no. Definitely not. Ahem.
Jul 06 13:36:25 <EmTonkin>Grace de la Flor mentioned earlier that she had heard that we did. I have not independently checked it.
Jul 06 13:36:43 <Sebastian>we did win the olympics yes
Jul 06 13:36:43 <--Tim (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has left #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:37:16 <Sebastian>so the guardian says
Jul 06 13:37:28 <EmTonkin>The vote to scrap the bill was passed by a margin of 648 votes to 14, with 18 abstentions.
Jul 06 13:37:33 <EmTonkin>hmm...
Jul 06 13:37:48 -->Stuart_Steele (c242166e@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:37:55 <Sebastian>and will the commission take any notice?
Jul 06 13:38:06 <EmTonkin>umm
Jul 06 13:38:31 <Sebastian>i lost track, did the speaker say they wroye their own blog app?
Jul 06 13:38:38 <EmTonkin>well that would be the question. Although that is rapidly becoming a basic question behind the whole desirability of Europe (TM). And I'm off-topic.
Jul 06 13:38:39 <Stuart_Steele>they did
Jul 06 13:38:43 <EmTonkin>yes
Jul 06 13:38:55 <MilesB>Yes - they wrote their own blog app
Jul 06 13:38:56 <AndrewSavory>Sebastian: yes, I believe they did
Jul 06 13:39:16 <MilesB>For reasons of scale, athentication, enforcement of AUP etc
Jul 06 13:39:20 <Sebastian>i wonderif Brian will shortly show this whole conversation to the assembled multitude
Jul 06 13:39:25 <EmTonkin>oh yes.
Jul 06 13:39:44 <MilesB>He's not logged on though? Could we be safe?
Jul 06 13:39:46 <EmTonkin>Brian, when you read this, I apologise for my off-topicness, and I have been listening really.
Jul 06 13:40:11 <EmTonkin>alas, if you see that Em_Tonkin at the top of the user list... it is logging the chat.
Jul 06 13:40:17 <AndrewSavory>so is Em_Tonkin the blogging bot, or Brian in disguise?
Jul 06 13:40:19 -->AndyP (a.powell@rox-7C41489F.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:40:20 <Sebastian>i havent. i've been using Skype nack home
Jul 06 13:40:33 <EmTonkin>I suppose I could censor the result to make it look as though I ramble less.
Jul 06 13:40:41 <EmTonkin>Greetings Andy Powell.
Jul 06 13:40:47 <AndyP>hello
Jul 06 13:40:53 <MilesB>I'm finding listening and chatting at the same time difficult
Jul 06 13:40:54 <Sebastian>you could put an <a> around that to link to ramble.oucs.ox.ac.uk
Jul 06 13:41:00 <MilesB>Hey Andy - long time no see
Jul 06 13:41:26 -->Randy (8143741b@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 13:41:41 <AndyP>I'm in Bath and supposed to be preparing a presentation for tomorrow... so won't be saying much!
Jul 06 13:41:48 <AndrewSavory>Hi Randy ;-)
Jul 06 13:41:55 <EmTonkin>this is a fascinating introduction
Jul 06 13:42:06 <Randy>Hi - I'm a first timer
Jul 06 13:42:18 <EmTonkin>hello Randy
Jul 06 13:42:23 <Randy>Hi Em
Jul 06 13:43:08 <Sebastian>shame randy didnt introduce himself
Jul 06 13:43:40 <EmTonkin>do it. think it. blog it!
Jul 06 13:43:42 <Randy>Didn't I? I work with Sebastian. And now I know what he does at conferences
Jul 06 13:43:45 <EmTonkin>nice.
Jul 06 13:43:52 <AndrewSavory>hmm, the banner ads owe a lot to Apple's marketing design ;-)
Jul 06 13:44:02 <Randy>that bad?
Jul 06 13:44:03 <Sebastian>yes it was a weak joke i hoped you might say "hi, i'm randy".
Jul 06 13:44:10 <EmTonkin>d'oh
Jul 06 13:44:18 <Stuart_Steele>isn't it just good design?
Jul 06 13:44:37 <MilesB>d'oh seconded
Jul 06 13:44:42 <EmTonkin>Actually, I'd like a blogging fridge magnet.
Jul 06 13:44:44 <Sebastian>memo to randy - oss watch fridge magnets
Jul 06 13:45:01 <Randy>forget it
Jul 06 13:45:03 <MilesB>I thought the designs looked good - order me a fridge magnet
Jul 06 13:45:10 <EmTonkin>to go with my dot com era @ sign pens and so forth.
Jul 06 13:45:11 <Stuart_Steele>why aren't they in the conference bag?
Jul 06 13:45:30 <EmTonkin>Strong community, there.
Jul 06 13:45:48 <Sebastian>aveage of 2 comments on every blog? amazing!
Jul 06 13:45:51 <EmTonkin>or anyway opinionated people.
Jul 06 13:46:08 <AndrewSavory>2 comments has to be more than blogger ;-)
Jul 06 13:46:08 <Randy>why aren't they studying or sleeping in the library?
Jul 06 13:46:13 <EmTonkin>it _is_ a pretty good number.
Jul 06 13:46:24 <Sebastian>i wonder what activity they gave uo to go blogging
Jul 06 13:46:34 <MilesB>Do they have internet cafes at Warwick?
Jul 06 13:46:35 <EmTonkin>hm.
Jul 06 13:46:35 <AndrewSavory>lectures?
Jul 06 13:46:56 <EmTonkin>maybe they blog during those periods in lectures in which they would otherwise be falling asleep.
Jul 06 13:47:03 <Randy>like now
Jul 06 13:47:08 <Sebastian>i assumed warwick was wireless. we need to ask the speaker if he knows what technology they use
Jul 06 13:47:40 <EmTonkin>in which case, I congratulate Warwick for finding a solution to a problem that I used to suffer frequently in quantum mechanics lectures.
Jul 06 13:47:44 <Sebastian>and is there a usage peak by time of day
Jul 06 13:47:59 <Stuart_Steele>answer the phone
Jul 06 13:48:18 <--MilesB has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
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Jul 06 13:48:38 <EmTonkin>aha
Jul 06 13:48:50 <MilesB>Sorry about leaving and coming back - I hate track pads
Jul 06 13:49:09 <EmTonkin>no problem
Jul 06 13:49:17 <AndrewSavory>Randy's misplaced the mute button ;-)
Jul 06 13:49:33 <Randy>found it!
Jul 06 13:49:34 <EmTonkin>I gave up on that and just plugged in earphones.
Jul 06 13:49:48 <AndrewSavory>ooh, good idea. can i play music at the same time, then? :-)
Jul 06 13:49:50 <Sebastian>drat. i knew i left something ehind
Jul 06 13:49:51 <EmTonkin>to spare my blushes
Jul 06 13:49:55 <EmTonkin>heh
Jul 06 13:50:39 <EmTonkin>well I was listening to iron maiden but strangely, it seems to conflict with my ability to concentrate on the talk at hand. So I decided to dispense with the tertiary soundtrack.
Jul 06 13:50:50 <Sebastian>its an odd thing, I cant see the words on the screen, because the contrast of the pc screen in front me is making my pupils contract. and I cant refocusq quick enough
Jul 06 13:51:01 <Sebastian>i mean on the big screen
Jul 06 13:51:03 <MilesB>Not good font size
Jul 06 13:51:22 <EmTonkin>it's readable from down here at the front.
Jul 06 13:51:34 <Stuart_Steele>could we ask him to bump up the font size?
Jul 06 13:51:43 <Stuart_Steele>ROFL
Jul 06 13:51:49 <MilesB>Ah - I'm on the raised seating - too far away
Jul 06 13:51:54 <Sebastian>its fine, technically. its just the switching between this IRC and the big screen
Jul 06 13:52:46 <AndrewSavory>middlesex university are doing an experiment with the fusion between blogs and wikis ... but i've broken the site, oops...
Jul 06 13:52:58 <EmTonkin>he' s right though. The ability to read it just distracts... particularly with subtitles like "Whose boobs?"
Jul 06 13:53:12 <EmTonkin>oh my. Vandelinde.
Jul 06 13:53:42 <AndrewSavory>nice urls... big improvement on bloxsom, etc
Jul 06 13:53:48 <Stuart_Steele>I've just noticed that
Jul 06 13:54:04 <Sebastian>http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/peterwoods/entry/vandelinde_in_golf/
Jul 06 13:54:21 <MilesB>Hmmm - wonder if my snr mgt would have this?
Jul 06 13:54:44 <EmTonkin>heh heh heh.
Jul 06 13:55:10 <MilesB>Love the pitch and putt
Jul 06 13:55:21 <Sebastian>is this warwick software available?
Jul 06 13:55:44 <EmTonkin>"This new venture will help me to meet more students as I will require a caddy"
Jul 06 13:56:04 <Stuart_Steele>I am wondering how they moderate this?
Jul 06 13:56:13 <EmTonkin>*blink*
Jul 06 13:56:16 <Sebastian>google gives 38000 hits on "warwick wetdream blog"
Jul 06 13:56:24 <EmTonkin>*blink blink*
Jul 06 13:56:25 <MilesB>Its not really the students I'm worried about
Jul 06 13:56:35 <MilesB>What if my colleagues published theo
Jul 06 13:56:38 <MilesB>oops
Jul 06 13:56:45 <MilesB>their dreams - I was going to say
Jul 06 13:57:07 <EmTonkin>er.
Jul 06 13:57:54 <EmTonkin>well I did once walk into the office and complain about a nightmare I had. But I don't think the office culture in UKOLN really promotes that sort of attention-validation thing.
Jul 06 13:57:55 <MilesB>Oh god - Kent loses out to Warwick in another league table
Jul 06 13:58:16 <MilesB>(re: gogle 38000 hits)
Jul 06 13:58:42 <EmTonkin>I think I'd be happy about that if I were you, milesb
Jul 06 13:58:56 <EmTonkin>advertising slogan returned just there.
Jul 06 13:59:00 <MilesB>yeh!
Jul 06 13:59:07 <EmTonkin>'empty my mind'
Jul 06 13:59:14 <MilesB>Would emptying his kmind have taken long?
Jul 06 13:59:17 <EmTonkin>heh. 'one-man sitcom'
Jul 06 13:59:36 <EmTonkin>gosh.
Jul 06 13:59:42 <Stuart_Steele>that shirt?
Jul 06 13:59:44 <EmTonkin>'me- in paper form - except digital'
Jul 06 13:59:53 <MilesB>Remember the Nick Park Creature Comfots?
Jul 06 13:59:57 <EmTonkin>hehe.
Jul 06 14:00:08 <Sebastian>nerd alert
Jul 06 14:00:12 <Stuart_Steele>oh rights its very on and offable...
Jul 06 14:00:29 <MilesB>yep - thats the one
Jul 06 14:00:32 <EmTonkin>hehe
Jul 06 14:00:33 <Sebastian>my kind of girl
Jul 06 14:00:50 <EmTonkin>' I' ve always been of the opinion that if I can explain something in a sarcastic way then clearly I understand it'
Jul 06 14:00:51 <Randy>virtual friends
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Jul 06 14:01:14 <Sebastian>dont knock thm, randy. its the best some of us can get
Jul 06 14:01:42 <EmTonkin>...said sebastian, leaving the door open to just the sort of humour that EmTonkin is not going to indulge in today.
Jul 06 14:02:11 <Sebastian>this boys looking for points from his tutor
Jul 06 14:02:12 <AndrewSavory>this is why irc should not be logged ;-)
Jul 06 14:02:35 <Sebastian>has this girls parents seen where their money is going?
Jul 06 14:02:44 <EmTonkin>sorry. Brian needs the logs for paper authorship purposes... :)
Jul 06 14:02:48 <EmTonkin>;)
Jul 06 14:03:13 <EmTonkin>oops
Jul 06 14:03:21 <EmTonkin>" It' s ok to shoot babies in the face "
Jul 06 14:03:32 <EmTonkin>that's a bloggable opinion fit for the freepers.
Jul 06 14:03:45 <Stuart_Steele>*straight jacket*
Jul 06 14:03:47 <AndrewSavory>i've lost track of the number of times i got reprimanded / shouted at / kicked for blogging ;-)
Jul 06 14:03:57 <EmTonkin>I blog under pseudonyms.
Jul 06 14:04:04 <AndrewSavory>that's not a bad idea
Jul 06 14:04:10 <Stuart_Steele>*bargin*
Jul 06 14:04:25 <EmTonkin>and I have a blog under my own name that gets nothing except for dry academic stuff
Jul 06 14:04:30 <EmTonkin>sort of a phd logbook
Jul 06 14:04:43 <EmTonkin>you know "Today I compiled a bf interpreter for the gumstix"
Jul 06 14:04:49 <Greg_Tourte>you know what guys? it is very hard to understand what you are talking about from remote. it seems we are missing some of what you can see.. am I right?
Jul 06 14:04:54 <EmTonkin>hehe
Jul 06 14:05:02 <Sebastian>whats the point of blogging if no-one knows its you?
Jul 06 14:05:16 <EmTonkin>you are missing a hilarious and interesting video presentation of a lot of students explaining how they feel about blogging
Jul 06 14:05:23 <Sebastian>dont the slides have the video?
Jul 06 14:05:34 <EmTonkin>no, I don't think so
Jul 06 14:05:40 <--MilesB has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
Jul 06 14:05:43 <Greg_Tourte>Oh I see
Jul 06 14:05:45 <Sebastian>this is a good style for the opening presentation
Jul 06 14:05:53 <EmTonkin>and as to the point of blogging if noone knows it's me, they know who I am, they just don't know my identity :P
Jul 06 14:06:06 <Stuart_Steele>I've enjoyed it i.e still awake
Jul 06 14:06:30 <AndrewSavory>copyright law is broken...
Jul 06 14:06:36 <Randy>no it isn't
Jul 06 14:06:46 <EmTonkin>one of my friends who blogs (livejournals) under his own name made the mistake of writing down where he worked (Newsweek I think it was) and a bunch of people actually phoned his work for various nefarious purposes.
Jul 06 14:06:47 <AndrewSavory>... discuss :-)
Jul 06 14:07:09 <AndrewSavory>Did you hear about the guy that got fired for being on Newsnight this week?
Jul 06 14:07:19 <Randy>no
Jul 06 14:07:24 <Sebastian>what nefarious purposes?
Jul 06 14:07:28 <EmTonkin>ah yeah... for p2p
Jul 06 14:07:29 <Stuart_Steele>the airhostess diaries were a fine example
Jul 06 14:07:47 <EmTonkin>sebastian: prank calls
Jul 06 14:07:53 <Stuart_Steele>photos of an airline hostess appeared on her blog she was eating asparagus
Jul 06 14:08:15 <Stuart_Steele>airline fired her for *misuse* of her uniform
Jul 06 14:08:17 <AndrewSavory>http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/netmusic/story/0,13368,1520589,00.html
Jul 06 14:08:31 <EmTonkin>sebastian: he had made the mistake previously of working as a schoolteacher, and blogging under his own name - and the school kids, who apparently hadn't enjoyed some of the names he had employed, chose to take revenge.
Jul 06 14:08:39 -->MilesB (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 14:08:59 <MilesB>Just fell off the wlan
Jul 06 14:09:08 <Sebastian>how do you use a uniform to eat asparagus?
Jul 06 14:09:28 <Stuart_Steele>google for queenofsky blog
Jul 06 14:10:40 <Stuart_Steele>*blink*
Jul 06 14:10:48 <Stuart_Steele>sorry just testing I was still connected
Jul 06 14:10:49 <--EmTonkin has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
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Jul 06 14:10:58 <EmTonkin>Wheee
Jul 06 14:11:01 <AndrewSavory>question for later ... will they make the code available to other universities?
Jul 06 14:11:05 <EmTonkin>and I fell off the wlan too.
Jul 06 14:11:38 <Sebastian>i cant see any reference to the code on the site, can you?
Jul 06 14:11:51 <Stuart_Steele>I doubt it
Jul 06 14:11:53 <AndrewSavory>nope
Jul 06 14:12:46 <Sebastian>the LSE needs a VRE then
Jul 06 14:13:22 <EmTonkin>you've just reminded me that for next conference I need to code an eggdrop bot that autodecodes TLAs.
Jul 06 14:13:32 <Stuart_Steele>he said he was struggling for content not technology
Jul 06 14:14:28 <EmTonkin>windows noise!
Jul 06 14:14:46 <MilesB>hehe
Jul 06 14:14:48 <AndrewSavory>... not to mention hosting it on an open irc server next time ;-) like the low barrier to entry with web clients, but hate usability :(
Jul 06 14:14:54 <EmTonkin>yes well I agree
Jul 06 14:15:05 <EmTonkin>but it is a hard choice to make...
Jul 06 14:15:16 <AndrewSavory>yup, don't envy you
Jul 06 14:15:25 <EmTonkin>at least it has worked better than the jabber client last time.
Jul 06 14:15:30 <AndrewSavory>accessible infrastructure: oxymoron?
Jul 06 14:16:22 <EmTonkin>;)
Jul 06 14:17:18 <EmTonkin>mmm. interesting.
Jul 06 14:17:36 <EmTonkin>hey, that's the iterative development cycle on the right. Almost.
Jul 06 14:17:37 <Stuart_Steele>your thoughts?
Jul 06 14:20:07 <Greg_Tourte>well about the openness of the irc server, we are still waiting for the IT guy at the university to open the port
Jul 06 14:20:18 <EmTonkin>ok.
Jul 06 14:20:44 <Stuart_Steele>will we need to specifically attach to one or the other access point?
Jul 06 14:20:57 <EmTonkin>what, the wifi access points here?
Jul 06 14:20:59 <EmTonkin>I don't know.
Jul 06 14:21:17 <EmTonkin>oh, that's a good point in fact. let me see if irc generally works here.
Jul 06 14:22:15 <Stuart_Steele>i can online web browse, no pop3 mail or anything
Jul 06 14:22:17 <EmTonkin>otherwise we might have to ask them to open a different port, greg.
Jul 06 14:22:17 <AndrewSavory>no, it doesn't
Jul 06 14:22:31 <AndrewSavory>but, i have a tunnel set up, and a redirector on my server
Jul 06 14:22:38 <AndrewSavory>8080 works
Jul 06 14:22:44 <Greg_Tourte>oh
Jul 06 14:22:50 <Sebastian>brian's looking over my shoulder......
Jul 06 14:22:51 <EmTonkin>cr**
Jul 06 14:22:55 <MilesB>There might be a difference if you use conference network not university network
Jul 06 14:23:02 <EmTonkin>maybe
Jul 06 14:23:08 <AndrewSavory>Hello brian ...
Jul 06 14:23:09 <EmTonkin>doesn't that cost money though?
Jul 06 14:23:12 <Stuart_Steele>i am on conference
Jul 06 14:23:21 <Sebastian>google for "auricle podcast john dale" says BK
Jul 06 14:23:26 <MilesB>I'm on uni
Jul 06 14:23:31 <AndrewSavory>don't tell anyone but the 'conference' ssid works fine
Jul 06 14:23:44 <AndrewSavory>(and has more ports open, more importantly)
Jul 06 14:23:47 <EmTonkin>brian I am NOT going to listen to an auricle podcast whilst listening to another talk.
Jul 06 14:23:47 <Stuart_Steele>works fine for......
Jul 06 14:23:58 <EmTonkin>! :)
Jul 06 14:24:08 <AndrewSavory>web, ssh, jabber
Jul 06 14:24:27 <Greg_Tourte>AndrewSavory: is port 6667 open on the conference ssid?
Jul 06 14:24:29 <EmTonkin>hmm... I get ssh on university network.
Jul 06 14:24:32 <Sebastian>but not secure smtp
Jul 06 14:25:11 <Sebastian>the "university" ssid throws you out every hour or so, from memory of a few weeks ago
Jul 06 14:25:12 <AndrewSavory>Greg_Tourte: not afaict - port 22, port 80, port 8080
Jul 06 14:25:19 <MilesB>We abandoned our publication like the one Stephen's talking about because of the problems he's describing
Jul 06 14:25:25 <Greg_Tourte>hmm
Jul 06 14:25:33 <EmTonkin>looks like we're just stuck with the cgi-irc then?
Jul 06 14:25:42 <Stuart_Steele>yes, I am up against this problem at the momemnt and we've gone to endnote
Jul 06 14:25:53 <Stuart_Steele>I've pulled XML
Jul 06 14:25:54 <Sebastian>Blair will close down the LSE next week i expect, for dissing ID cards
Jul 06 14:26:02 <EmTonkin>well, we're not of course, you could always stick it on port 8080 and hope they're not actually packet filtering.
Jul 06 14:26:04 <AndrewSavory>rinetd would fix the problem at BUCS, or I can fix the problem for us
Jul 06 14:26:05 <Stuart_Steele>indeed he will
Jul 06 14:26:09 <Greg_Tourte>not much we can do as port 8080 is already used on the machine hosting the irc server
Jul 06 14:26:13 <EmTonkin>oh.
Jul 06 14:26:21 <EmTonkin>err.
Jul 06 14:26:26 <Stuart_Steele>tomcat?
Jul 06 14:26:28 <AndrewSavory>(I've tried tunnelling too, that works ... if you hit my machine on port 1024 you get redirected to irc.oftc.net
Jul 06 14:26:36 <Greg_Tourte>yep
Jul 06 14:26:50 <EmTonkin>well let's see what other ports are open that we can co-opt.
Jul 06 14:26:51 <Stuart_Steele>this is gettinga little geekish
Jul 06 14:26:52 <AndrewSavory>if we're all on the same SSID I think one tunnel would work for everyone
Jul 06 14:27:24 <Sebastian>i'm still owondering what "I've pulled XML" means.
Jul 06 14:27:41 <Stuart_Steele>pulled xML from endnote,
Jul 06 14:27:46 <MilesB>Michael - good to meet you virtually again
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Jul 06 14:27:49 <EmTonkin>greg: we could just ssh tunnel then.
Jul 06 14:28:34 *EmTonkin wonders why web services are all represented by gents' bathroom signs.
Jul 06 14:28:44 <MilesB>Good point
Jul 06 14:28:47 <EmTonkin>(sorry greg, not one you would have visual access to that)
Jul 06 14:28:55 <patrickhlauke>as i missed the first session this morning...am i right in assuming that gaim doesn't work on the network here?
Jul 06 14:29:11 <Stuart_Steele>it should do it was mentioned
Jul 06 14:29:19 <Stuart_Steele>in fact promoted
Jul 06 14:29:31 <EmTonkin>jabber doesn't if you're on the university wifi network...
Jul 06 14:29:42 <EmTonkin>depends what you're trying to connect to, therefore.
Jul 06 14:29:49 <patrickhlauke>hm...should i switch to conference network?
Jul 06 14:29:51 <Stuart_Steele>i'm on msn messenger
Jul 06 14:30:26 <EmTonkin>possibly
Jul 06 14:30:39 <Sebastian>quark to web, yawn.
Jul 06 14:30:47 <MilesB>All the "in the old days" examples in this talk apply to the way we do it at Kent!
Jul 06 14:30:50 <EmTonkin>mmm.
Jul 06 14:30:55 <Greg_Tourte>true you could ssh tunnel but each of you will have to tunnel through your respective network
Jul 06 14:30:59 <MilesB>Quark to plain text
Jul 06 14:31:00 <patrickhlauke>right...i'll give it a whirl...as this presentation isn't gripping me. i'm ungripped...
Jul 06 14:31:03 <MilesB>Plain text to HTML
Jul 06 14:31:09 <--patrickhlauke has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 06 14:31:11 <MilesB>Oh god its so depressing
Jul 06 14:31:13 *EmTonkin admits that she is also ungripped.
Jul 06 14:31:22 <Sebastian>yuuurgh
Jul 06 14:31:27 <Stuart_Steele>perhaps you should separate content from markup
Jul 06 14:31:34 <MilesB>eek - really?
Jul 06 14:31:38 <Sebastian>they need XSL FO, he said geeiklyu
Jul 06 14:31:48 <EmTonkin>it worries me that printed content is said to equal web publishable content.
Jul 06 14:31:49 <EmTonkin>but
Jul 06 14:31:57 <EmTonkin>I guess a prospectus is a special case.
Jul 06 14:32:06 <MilesB>hear hear
Jul 06 14:32:13 <Stuart_Steele>printed material is out of date by thte time it gets delivered
Jul 06 14:32:13 <AndrewSavory>ah, i think we should replace all our 'corporate' sites with blogs
Jul 06 14:32:14 <Sebastian>"customer chain" seems a very grand word for all this
Jul 06 14:32:31 <Stuart_Steele>you missed the *internal*
Jul 06 14:32:34 <Randy>I like it - but let's call them basic income units
Jul 06 14:32:35 <AndrewSavory>hand out flyers instead of prospectuses, saying "visit blogs.foo.ac.uk"
Jul 06 14:32:37 <EmTonkin>chain up one's customers, eh?
Jul 06 14:32:45 <MilesB>Is the user getting what they want? The prospective student?
Jul 06 14:33:46 <MilesB>I can see that he is talking about helping the people who know the content to write the content
Jul 06 14:33:59 <MilesB>I like the idea of the those who know being able to publish
Jul 06 14:34:22 <Stuart_Steele>yes, but its encouraging them not to bother with presentation
Jul 06 14:34:28 <Sebastian>not exactly a rocket science concept?
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Jul 06 14:34:47 <MilesB>No - but how many institutions acutally do it?
Jul 06 14:34:54 <Stuart_Steele>not mine
Jul 06 14:35:00 <Stuart_Steele>but we're learning
Jul 06 14:35:13 <EmTonkin>http://orweblog.oclc.org/archives/000702.html
Jul 06 14:35:14 <Stuart_Steele>we've now got guidlines
Jul 06 14:35:30 <EmTonkin>(was reminded of this for some reason)
Jul 06 14:35:52 <EmTonkin>probably because of the question "Is the user getting what they want"
Jul 06 14:36:00 <Sebastian>pah. now he's being patronzing
Jul 06 14:36:31 <EmTonkin>just one target customer.
Jul 06 14:36:34 <EmTonkin>:)
Jul 06 14:36:53 <Stuart_Steele>could be worse, It could be me standing up their;
Jul 06 14:36:54 <Stuart_Steele>)
Jul 06 14:37:05 <Stuart_Steele>sorry there*
Jul 06 14:37:10 <Sebastian>keep your hands out of the till. folks, Brians watching
Jul 06 14:38:14 <AndrewSavory>Right, that's it. I'm going to bludgeon Stephen over the head with a copy of OmniGraffle. The non-transparent white squares with rounded diagrams are really bugging me
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Jul 06 14:38:50 <Sebastian>probably our most valuable asset, people
Jul 06 14:38:56 <Stuart_Steele>we should be using macromedia breeze
Jul 06 14:39:08 <AndrewSavory>usually the most undervalued asset, too, iirc
Jul 06 14:39:11 <Stuart_Steele>I wouldn't have to look up from the screen
Jul 06 14:39:19 <MilesB>Most expensive
Jul 06 14:39:20 <Randy>Thanks - sebastian
Jul 06 14:39:43 <Stuart_Steele>So I have found, but I am sure we could have tweaked out a free trial
Jul 06 14:39:45 <Sebastian>only applies to natives, randy
Jul 06 14:39:48 <Greg_Tourte>dia... anyone?
Jul 06 14:39:49 <MilesB>People break systems and processes and should be removed
Jul 06 14:39:51 <Randy>damn
Jul 06 14:39:54 <EmTonkin>well without people it would be a little futile.
Jul 06 14:40:01 <MilesB>:-)
Jul 06 14:40:12 <AndrewSavory>Greg_Tourte: dia is fine, but not so good with layered transparencies ;-)
Jul 06 14:40:19 <EmTonkin>but it would remove all those nasty questions of institutional culture and changing user needs and so forth.
Jul 06 14:40:20 <Sebastian>a good machine is a clean machine, with no users. books should stay in libraries
Jul 06 14:40:27 <Sebastian>can you rotate objects in dia?
Jul 06 14:40:31 <Greg_Tourte>AndrewSavory: true
Jul 06 14:40:41 <EmTonkin>Sebastian: nail. head. thwack.
Jul 06 14:40:52 <Greg_Tourte>Sebastian: not yet afaik...
Jul 06 14:40:53 <Stuart_Steele>dia?
Jul 06 14:41:05 <Sebastian>^nail^nail in the^ ?
Jul 06 14:41:16 <AndrewSavory>dia: http://www.gnome.org/projects/dia/
Jul 06 14:41:27 <AndrewSavory>one of these strange free software thingummies
Jul 06 14:41:44 <Stuart_Steele>like visio?
Jul 06 14:41:44 <Sebastian>its nice. XML storage. good export facilites for TeXxies. ie in metapost
Jul 06 14:41:54 <Sebastian>yes but for Linux too
Jul 06 14:41:56 <AndrewSavory>can we have a googlebot in the next irc experiment, please? :-)
Jul 06 14:42:02 <EmTonkin>sure.
Jul 06 14:42:13 <EmTonkin>I actually compiled and installed an eggdrop yesterday
Jul 06 14:42:27 <Sebastian>big endian or small endian?
Jul 06 14:42:30 <EmTonkin>but stopped short of configuring it, being persuaded that I was perhaps verging on the geeky side.
Jul 06 14:42:59 -->CGI711 (d9892401@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 14:43:10 <EmTonkin>pity. A markov chain random chatbot for example would have enlivened the conversation still further. Or not.
Jul 06 14:43:38 <--Randy has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
Jul 06 14:43:44 <AndrewSavory>heh
Jul 06 14:43:46 <EmTonkin>hi CGI711
Jul 06 14:43:48 <AndrewSavory>has everyone read http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/powerpoint btw?
Jul 06 14:43:53 <patrickhlauke>yup
Jul 06 14:43:56 -->Randy (8143741b@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 06 14:45:09 <EmTonkin>I haven't, but I clearly ought to
Jul 06 14:45:20 <--CGI711 has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 06 14:45:30 <AndrewSavory>Is it not possible to construct a chain that properly takes into account customer _AND_ supplier? (or did I miss that bit?)
Jul 06 14:45:42 <patrickhlauke>background images in powerpoint slides reduce readability....and somehow, i'm bored even more by this presentation because of it...or maybe it's just me, not sure
Jul 06 14:45:43 <EmTonkin>I'm confused I'm afraid
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Jul 06 14:46:02 <AndrewSavory>the text is a little dense on screen
Jul 06 14:46:13 <Sebastian>too many points on one slide
Jul 06 14:46:14 <Stuart_Steele>perhaps if the backgrounds changed from slide to slide
Jul 06 14:46:22 <EmTonkin>I suspect I am a little unfamiliar with this particular vocabulary set.
Jul 06 14:46:31 <patrickhlauke>bit more colour, a bit more humour, and less monotonous voice would also be a plus
Jul 06 14:46:33 <AndrewSavory>I also recommend http://perl.plover.com/yak/presentation/samples/slide001.html
Jul 06 14:46:46 <patrickhlauke>oh...almost a laugh...
Jul 06 14:47:05 <JeremySpellerUCL>Hope you're going to be as polite as this during my talk...
Jul 06 14:47:06 <--MichaelWilcox has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
Jul 06 14:47:11 <patrickhlauke>nah
Jul 06 14:47:21 <Sebastian>micro sites are a specialism of oxford. we claim its a Good Thing.
Jul 06 14:47:48 <EmTonkin>I know, I'm feeling very guilty about the clearly evident attitude problem we are exhibiting with respect to this discussion.
Jul 06 14:47:51 <AndrewSavory>i'd love to read the backchannel conversation after one of my presentations - find out if the things *I* think were wrong agree with the audience
Jul 06 14:48:12 <JeremySpellerUCL>I'm still off site and won't be there until later - how's it going so far?
Jul 06 14:48:21 <Sebastian>i'm never going to talk at one of Brian;s conferences ever again
Jul 06 14:48:22 <patrickhlauke>the backchat should be featured as captions below the slides on the big screen
Jul 06 14:48:28 <AndrewSavory>JeremySpellerUCL: good, so far
Jul 06 14:48:41 <Sebastian>sur tittles, and a signing person onn the stage too
Jul 06 14:48:46 <AndrewSavory>patrickhlauke: I like it ... "NEXT SLIDE PLEASE" :-)
Jul 06 14:49:05 <patrickhlauke>exactly
Jul 06 14:49:07 <Randy>I agree - doesn't Brian have a switch where he can turn the wifi off when he wants people to pay attention?
Jul 06 14:49:16 <AndrewSavory>that's a good idea
Jul 06 14:49:25 <EmTonkin>It's going pretty well so far JeremySpellerUCL: but you probably missed the best slide already. "Whose Boobs" - a Warwick blog slide.
Jul 06 14:49:26 <Sebastian>Jeremy, the first talk on warwick blogs was good. the lse stuff rather dull.
Jul 06 14:49:35 <patrickhlauke>yup that ws
Jul 06 14:49:39 <patrickhlauke>was the business
Jul 06 14:49:41 <AndrewSavory>(a good argument for an internal IRC server is being able to "turn off" mail, web etc)
Jul 06 14:49:43 <Stuart_Steele>he could offer the mints on the table that would get my attention
Jul 06 14:49:49 <JeremySpellerUCL>er - it take it this is yer man running through his, what was it, 68 slides in a half hour?
Jul 06 14:49:53 <MilesB>Anyone got ideas on how I chair the SE discussion group on CMS implementation without knowing anything about it?
Jul 06 14:49:56 <patrickhlauke>wake me up now please
Jul 06 14:50:04 <Sebastian>giving ISBM numbers at the end of the talk. honestly.
Jul 06 14:50:23 <EmTonkin>anyone know how to run a workshop when you forgot to write the slides?
Jul 06 14:50:30 <MilesB>hehe
Jul 06 14:50:36 <Randy>yes
Jul 06 14:50:37 <AndrewSavory>ISBM?
Jul 06 14:50:43 <EmTonkin>-M+N
Jul 06 14:50:47 <EmTonkin>probably?
Jul 06 14:50:48 <AndrewSavory>ah
Jul 06 14:50:51 <patrickhlauke>em: you wing it and say "i want this to be more of a conversation"
Jul 06 14:50:57 <EmTonkin>ah.
Jul 06 14:50:59 <EmTonkin>OK.
Jul 06 14:51:11 <MilesB>Thats good
Jul 06 14:51:11 <patrickhlauke>copout though
Jul 06 14:51:12 <EmTonkin>thanks for the tip...
Jul 06 14:51:13 <Randy>also say "and what do you think of that" a lot
Jul 06 14:51:15 <Sebastian>you hand out postit notes and ask them to write down 3 characteristics of a CMS
Jul 06 14:51:20 <patrickhlauke>hehe
Jul 06 14:51:22 <EmTonkin>oh boy
Jul 06 14:51:29 <MilesB>"I have loads of ideas, but this session is for you, so I'm going to stay quiet"
Jul 06 14:51:36 <Randy>perfect
Jul 06 14:51:40 <EmTonkin>talk amongst yourselves. I may be some time.
Jul 06 14:51:50 <patrickhlauke>"you'll get out of this workshop only as much as you put in" or something...
Jul 06 14:51:51 *EmTonkin walks out into the snow minus parka.
Jul 06 14:51:55 <Stuart_Steele>its a regional chatty thing now
Jul 06 14:51:59 <Sebastian>ask people to wear (imaginary) coloured hats and discuss the strengths and weaknesses of a CMS
Jul 06 14:52:09 <patrickhlauke>"i'm off for a fag...when i'm back in 20 minutes, let's discuss what you came up with"
Jul 06 14:52:20 <patrickhlauke>regional chat...do we have to do accents?
Jul 06 14:52:24 <MilesB>Don't do anything foolish Em
Jul 06 14:52:35 <EmTonkin>don't make me laugh.
Jul 06 14:52:36 <patrickhlauke>i still haven't even checked my delegate pack...hmmm
Jul 06 14:52:38 <MilesB>I gave up smoking <sigh>
Jul 06 14:52:39 <Stuart_Steele>i dont have an accent
Jul 06 14:52:44 <EmTonkin>oh god. I'm in the front row and I'm giggling.
Jul 06 14:52:50 <Sebastian>turn to your neighnour, chat to him/her for 5 mins, then each introduce each other to the group"
Jul 06 14:52:50 <JeremySpellerUCL>I'm still in a region
Jul 06 14:52:55 <patrickhlauke>LOL
Jul 06 14:52:57 <AndrewSavory>btw ... is it ok to blog opinions about these talks?
Jul 06 14:53:08 <patrickhlauke>of course why not
Jul 06 14:53:15 <Stuart_Steele>its live on the web
Jul 06 14:53:20 <owen>i am - http://www.meanboyfriend.com/overdue_ideas
Jul 06 14:53:21 <--Randy has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 06 14:53:22 <Sebastian>but yoy cant quote this IRC
Jul 06 14:53:27 <EmTonkin>AndrewSavory: I imagine so, but I would probably try to be fairly kind because it's, well, only nice.
Jul 06 14:53:34 <patrickhlauke>right...my battery is dead
Jul 06 14:53:38 <MilesB>If you and your CMS were a starter and main course, which would they be?
Jul 06 14:53:48 *EmTonkin is plugging back in soon.
Jul 06 14:53:50 <patrickhlauke>back in a bit
Jul 06 14:53:54 <EmTonkin>I like centrinos.
Jul 06 14:53:57 <--patrickhlauke has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 06 14:53:58 <MilesB>ttfn
Jul 06 14:54:06 <Sebastian>i like wall plugs and moveable chairs
Jul 06 14:54:07 <Stuart_Steele>50% to go
Jul 06 14:54:11 <Sebastian>\quit
Jul 06 14:54:14 *EmTonkin has 62% to go
Jul 06 14:54:14 <--Sebastian has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC 0.5.7 (2005/06/19))
Jul 06 14:54:34 <Stuart_Steele>I'm off to the regional group, will we be able to still connect from other rooms
Jul 06 14:54:37 <EmTonkin>still. *sigh* parallel session time.
Jul 06 14:54:42 <MilesB>31% or 53 minutes remaining
Jul 06 14:54:43 <EmTonkin>I imagine so...
Jul 06 14:55:11 <EmTonkin>but unfortunately as I am supposed to be facilitating a workshop I may not be very talkative. Unless I persuade the two people who turn up to give up and head off to the pub.
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Jul 06 14:55:26 *EmTonkin heads off for some liquid refreshment.
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Jul 06 15:24:50 <Greg_Tourte>hello
Jul 06 15:24:59 <Greg_Tourte>btw the port is now open#
Jul 06 15:25:04 <EmTonkin>oh right
Jul 06 15:25:08 <EmTonkin>if only it was for us :(
Jul 06 15:26:09 <Greg_Tourte>but at least if people want to tunnel through their own network, they can
Jul 06 15:27:52 <EmTonkin>true
Jul 06 15:28:39 *EmTonkin is a bit worried about the workshop thingy
Jul 06 15:28:47 *EmTonkin doesn't really want to do it
Jul 06 15:28:50 <EmTonkin>bah
Jul 06 15:30:20 <Greg_Tourte>fair enough
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Jul 06 16:11:28 <patrickhlauke>ho hum...
Jul 06 16:11:38 <MilesB>I'm in future proofing collaboration tools
Jul 06 16:11:47 <MilesB>Wot u up to?
Jul 06 16:11:55 <patrickhlauke>gathering user requirements...not my first choice, but hey
Jul 06 16:12:52 <MilesB>Just being filled in to caves - bit like holodecks allegedly - wow!
Jul 06 16:18:08 <patrickhlauke>we have a CAVE at salford. it's actually underwhelming...lots of gaffer tape and bits of cardboard behind the scenes ;)
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Jul 06 16:21:33 <MilesB>Ah - not so "holo" more "hollow"?
Jul 06 16:21:34 <MilesB>Sorry
Jul 06 16:21:43 <Greg_Tourte>hey hey
Jul 06 16:21:45 <patrickhlauke>heh
Jul 06 16:22:19 <patrickhlauke>i'm the only one with a laptop here...i'm getting weird looks
Jul 06 16:23:31 <Stuart_Steele>which one are you in
Jul 06 16:23:32 <Stuart_Steele>?
Jul 06 16:23:51 <patrickhlauke>gathering user needs...not my first choice
Jul 06 16:23:55 <patrickhlauke>you?
Jul 06 16:24:28 <Stuart_Steele>thrid party servces into portals
Jul 06 16:24:35 <Stuart_Steele>not quite what I expected
Jul 06 16:24:46 <Stuart_Steele>although I MAY of missed the intro
Jul 06 16:24:52 <patrickhlauke>hmm...was that something with RSS and stuff?
Jul 06 16:25:16 <Stuart_Steele>erm no its about portals and third part y services
Jul 06 16:26:06 <Stuart_Steele>the guy talking is quite good but there is a slight techie battle going on
Jul 06 16:26:13 <patrickhlauke>ah, getting mixed up with another one i read about
Jul 06 16:27:19 <Stuart_Steele>someone is very interested in protocals when its clearly a theory based discussion
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Jul 06 16:27:59 <patrickhlauke>heh...there's always those people who can't see the wood for the trees
Jul 06 16:28:18 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>someones piped op to level the playing field
Jul 06 16:33:27 <patrickhlauke>hurrah....somebody just mentioned jakob nielsen...was waiting for that one
Jul 06 16:33:59 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>DOes the guy have long hair
Jul 06 16:34:17 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>chin length a little kurt kobain-ish?
Jul 06 16:34:28 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>buzz-word bingo
Jul 06 16:34:59 <patrickhlauke>nah tracey hunt from cambridge
Jul 06 16:35:23 <patrickhlauke>but kobainish is sitting next to me, if it's the same guy you mean :)
Jul 06 16:38:46 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>hes called nick Meara, introduce yourself
Jul 06 16:39:04 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>normally wears green/kharki/
Jul 06 16:39:44 <MilesB>I should have been more techie for this I think
Jul 06 16:40:14 <patrickhlauke>what are they talking about now, miles?
Jul 06 16:40:35 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>Which one you sitting in MilesB
Jul 06 16:41:04 <patrickhlauke>building a holodeck...aeh...future proofing collaborative tools
Jul 06 16:41:28 <CGI555>I'm in Tom Frnklin's session (WSRP, SOAP, etc.) Brian
Jul 06 16:41:42 <MilesB>What happens to new technologies over time
Jul 06 16:41:43 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>are you at the back CGI555?
Jul 06 16:42:03 <MilesB>On screen was slide of lots of ancronyms
Jul 06 16:42:03 *Stuart_Steele_Aston front row my the projector
Jul 06 16:42:15 *Stuart_Steele_Aston front row by the projector
Jul 06 16:42:38 <MilesB>However - this is also quite philosophical - and I'm not really that either! ooops
Jul 06 16:43:10 <patrickhlauke>hmmm...sounds like it could have been interesting for me that one
Jul 06 16:43:33 <patrickhlauke>i'm sort of a philosophical techie...and a devil's advocate. i'd stir stuff up a bit :)
Jul 06 16:44:59 <MilesB>Open Office is now crashing
Jul 06 16:45:07 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>nice
Jul 06 16:45:09 <patrickhlauke>on the presenter's laptop?
Jul 06 16:45:10 <MilesB>On the speaker's pc not mine
Jul 06 16:45:13 <patrickhlauke>heh
Jul 06 16:45:29 <patrickhlauke>where's sebasthian? open source, open source...
Jul 06 16:45:59 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>has anyon got internet access from their hotel room?
Jul 06 16:47:31 <patrickhlauke>to me this doesn't feel like a conference, as i live about 10 minutes away from here :(
Jul 06 16:47:42 <patrickhlauke>it's not a conference unless i have to travel 2 hours by train...
Jul 06 16:47:56 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>1:56 by train
Jul 06 16:48:07 <patrickhlauke>where you from?
Jul 06 16:48:14 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>dudley
Jul 06 16:48:24 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>aston uni
Jul 06 16:48:30 <patrickhlauke>i'm the web person for university of salford
Jul 06 16:49:02 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>as your local, does the manchester aquatic centre have proper swimming pools
Jul 06 16:49:22 <patrickhlauke>aeh...no idea, soz. i'd think so though
Jul 06 16:49:58 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>i dont mind as long as its not a *fun pool*
Jul 06 16:50:33 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>I am specifically responsible for aston business school
Jul 06 16:51:20 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>little group time, going to do some chatting
Jul 06 16:51:27 <patrickhlauke>okeydokey
Jul 06 16:51:31 <patrickhlauke>speak later :)
Jul 06 16:51:58 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>ta ta
Jul 06 16:53:35 <patrickhlauke>right...card sort time for us ... whoppee doooh
Jul 06 16:53:37 <patrickhlauke>laters
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Second day - 7 July 2005

Jul 07 01:56:17 -->Anon6556 (Anon6556@rox-48115BBD.cable.ubr02.trow.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 07 01:56:35 ---Anon6556 is now known as Greg
Jul 07 01:57:07 <Greg>test
Jul 07 01:57:17 <Greg>:-P
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Jul 07 02:01:41 <Anon1336>:-P
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Jul 07 02:01:53 <Anon9231>:-P
Jul 07 02:02:34 <Anon9231>:)
Jul 07 02:02:36 <Anon9231>:-)
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Jul 07 02:03:49 <Anon3754>:-P
Jul 07 02:03:54 <Anon3754>:-)
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Jul 07 02:05:27 <Anon5992>:-P
Jul 07 02:05:29 <Anon5992>:-)
Jul 07 02:05:45 ---Anon5992 is now known as GREG
Jul 07 02:05:55 ---GREG is now known as Greg
Jul 07 02:06:40 <Greg>for the record there is a new client available but this time as a java apllet
Jul 07 02:06:44 <Greg>applet rather
Jul 07 02:07:16 <Greg>it requires local connection though unlike cgi:irc
Jul 07 02:07:37 <Greg>but the interface is nicer and it is less stressfull for the server
Jul 07 02:07:52 <Greg>http://dev.ukoln.ac.uk/irc/pjirc
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Jul 07 08:55:29 <AndrewSavory>Goooood morning!
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Jul 07 09:00:43 ---CGI894 is now known as SebastianRahtz
Jul 07 09:04:49 <AndrewSavory>Hi Sebastian
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Jul 07 09:05:12 <AndrewSavory>mornin
Jul 07 09:05:27 <SebastianRahtz>once more unto the breech
Jul 07 09:05:40 <JonWarbrick>Good morning all
Jul 07 09:05:48 <AndrewSavory>was there a service for viewing presentation slides real-time over the inkernet?
Jul 07 09:06:45 <JonWarbrick>There's Jybe, but I don't know if we are usin it
Jul 07 09:07:59 <Randy>massification?
Jul 07 09:09:46 <Randy>excellent - education is cheaper than prison
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Jul 07 09:11:13 <MilesB>Morning all
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Jul 07 09:14:21 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>morning
Jul 07 09:14:45 <SebastianRahtz>800 years? my university had been going for 200 years by then
Jul 07 09:15:16 <SebastianRahtz>is Phoenix near Amarillo?
Jul 07 09:15:31 <MilesB>WHelp!
Jul 07 09:15:42 <MilesB>My input box has disappeared
Jul 07 09:15:50 <MilesB>I'm typing blind
Jul 07 09:15:55 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>have you re-sized your screen?
Jul 07 09:16:03 <MilesB>Oops
Jul 07 09:16:04 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>sorry window
Jul 07 09:16:14 <MilesB>Phew
Jul 07 09:16:28 <MilesB>Found it - what a technological triumph
Jul 07 09:16:29 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>so who stayed up latest?
Jul 07 09:16:44 -->MichaelW (c242176a@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 07 09:16:50 <MilesB>Only 1
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Jul 07 09:17:53 <SebastianRahtz>I wish this bloke would come to Oxford and shake us up
Jul 07 09:18:06 <MilesB>I agree - he should tour
Jul 07 09:18:30 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>we should play buzz-word bingo
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Jul 07 09:19:12 <MilesB>We have lights out tech. at Kent
Jul 07 09:19:23 <MilesB>turn too many on and the lights go out
Jul 07 09:19:52 <--MichaelW has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 07 09:19:58 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>I used to work at a council, the power cut off switch in the server room was behind the door,
Jul 07 09:20:10 -->Randy (81437406@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 07 09:20:21 <MilesB>hehe
Jul 07 09:20:30 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>it was light standing next to concorde when it powers down
Jul 07 09:20:43 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>then the Ups's's's' begin to beep
Jul 07 09:20:55 <MilesB>A guy at Kent tripped and hit the power off with his head
Jul 07 09:21:21 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>rofl
Jul 07 09:21:25 <Tim>hey did you notice the first 'paradigm' of the day?
Jul 07 09:21:42 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>hey, where can I buy this new device?
Jul 07 09:22:02 <MilesB>catability
Jul 07 09:22:06 <SebastianRahtz>and all this, even before we have the poxy olympics
Jul 07 09:22:06 <JMHarmer>we had someone plug in a big drill in our m/c room - into the 1st socket he found - the web server UPS! fun...
Jul 07 09:22:10 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>he needs to work for palm
Jul 07 09:22:43 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>hey the olympics is a great thing....
Jul 07 09:22:57 <JMHarmer>Do these new roll-out PDAs come with a picnic table to support all the rolled out bits?
Jul 07 09:23:06 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>....for london, if they build me a 50m pool in brimingham I'll be happy
Jul 07 09:24:19 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>damm, my typings bad :(
Jul 07 09:24:33 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>brb
Jul 07 09:27:10 <MilesB>two double ten
Jul 07 09:27:14 <MilesB>21010
Jul 07 09:27:17 <MilesB>wow
Jul 07 09:27:25 <SebastianRahtz>ooh er the font has changed
Jul 07 09:27:30 <JeremySpellerUCL>did he mean that?
Jul 07 09:27:33 <JMHarmer>future planning par excellence...
Jul 07 09:27:37 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>does this mean we'll have these deveices for the olympics
Jul 07 09:28:32 <JMHarmer>perhaps PDA usage will be a new olympic sport...
Jul 07 09:29:15 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>they have a txt message championships somewhere, the number of words per minute
Jul 07 09:30:13 <MilesB>How about PDA throwing
Jul 07 09:30:19 <Tim>you need to be good at speed reading for these slides
Jul 07 09:30:21 <SebastianRahtz>why do people always believe Gartner?
Jul 07 09:30:35 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>obviously he didn't
Jul 07 09:30:47 <SebastianRahtz>has anyone been back and checked their past stuff?
Jul 07 09:30:59 <JeremySpellerUCL>whose stuff
Jul 07 09:31:09 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>Gartners
Jul 07 09:31:12 <SebastianRahtz>gartners
Jul 07 09:31:13 <JMHarmer>Gartner is expensive thus management trust them - like the consultants we keep getting to tell us what to do...
Jul 07 09:31:36 <SebastianRahtz>i've changed my mind, i dont want this man coming to oxford thanx
Jul 07 09:31:55 <Randy>don't you want to be world class?
Jul 07 09:32:04 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>He'd have my wallet
Jul 07 09:32:16 <SebastianRahtz>i dont want to be in fortress manchester
Jul 07 09:32:25 <JeremySpellerUCL>already am if you believe our hype...
Jul 07 09:32:39 <MilesB>Thats a bit flower power that slide
Jul 07 09:32:39 <JMHarmer>I want a fortress university, gun towers and all... and a moat (?sp)
Jul 07 09:32:41 <Randy>does MIT describe itself as world class
Jul 07 09:32:56 <JeremySpellerUCL>doesn't have to
Jul 07 09:33:02 <Randy>exactly
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Jul 07 09:33:29 <MilesB>I expect Poppleton does
Jul 07 09:33:43 <JeremySpellerUCL>naturaly
Jul 07 09:33:55 <SebastianRahtz>my god he believes Microsoft!
Jul 07 09:34:03 <MilesB>XML or MS XML TM?
Jul 07 09:34:16 <JeremySpellerUCL>yup - run evrything from Office
Jul 07 09:34:18 <MilesB>shushi?
Jul 07 09:34:21 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>MSXML
Jul 07 09:34:27 <JeremySpellerUCL>..from John Lewis?
Jul 07 09:34:39 <MilesB>hang on - i'm confused
Jul 07 09:34:43 <JeremySpellerUCL>me to
Jul 07 09:34:44 <Tim>maybe he meant waitrose?
Jul 07 09:34:48 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>I am holding
Jul 07 09:34:49 <MilesB>Do I get sushi from MS in XML?
Jul 07 09:34:55 <Randy>probably does mean free in the FSF sense
Jul 07 09:35:07 <MilesB>or RSS on beds of rice from John Lewis#
Jul 07 09:35:11 <SebastianRahtz>BLINX ist der Provider aus Berlin und bekannt für schnelle und zuverlässige Verbindungen
Jul 07 09:35:26 <Tim>of sushi?
Jul 07 09:35:30 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>key?
Jul 07 09:35:34 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>keh?
Jul 07 09:36:00 <SebastianRahtz>do you mean que?
Jul 07 09:36:09 <JeremySpellerUCL>aha - I'm inappropriate
Jul 07 09:36:19 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>nice, way of puttingthat
Jul 07 09:36:21 <SebastianRahtz>cant get blinx for my OS, drat
Jul 07 09:36:40 <SebastianRahtz>TOO MANY WORDS ON YOUR SLIDES,MATE!
Jul 07 09:36:41 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>isn't their an open source equiv?
Jul 07 09:37:25 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>Its hard to keep up, type and read the slides
Jul 07 09:37:37 <SebastianRahtz>w.w.w. sigh
Jul 07 09:37:38 <JeremySpellerUCL>I'd type then
Jul 07 09:37:40 <MilesB>Yup - slides on the web though - never fear
Jul 07 09:38:12 <JMHarmer>I never sw anyone write WWW as W.W.W. before...
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Jul 07 09:38:23 <MilesB>I like the ideas - sounds fun to be working at Manchester
Jul 07 09:38:35 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>thats a busy slide
Jul 07 09:39:10 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>yes, but who is actually doing the work, is it consultancy implementation
Jul 07 09:39:20 <JeremySpellerUCL>ask him about eh sushi
Jul 07 09:39:43 <JeremySpellerUCL>we're stunned mate
Jul 07 09:39:49 <MilesB>yep
Jul 07 09:39:55 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>did he just admit to stunning someone down canal street
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Jul 07 09:42:11 <SebastianRahtz>paul browning used to flog this data warehouse thang didnt he
Jul 07 09:42:25 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>Brians just sat down behind me,
Jul 07 09:43:34 <MilesB>Is he peeking?
Jul 07 09:43:54 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>hes currently trying to find his wifi point
Jul 07 09:43:58 <JMHarmer>is he from peeking? that's not where sushi comes from...
Jul 07 09:44:00 <JeremySpellerUCL>Is he in the land of the living?
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Jul 07 09:45:03 <JMHarmer>aww, how nice.
Jul 07 09:45:19 <SebastianRahtz>oooh cutting criticism of prof clark....
Jul 07 09:46:10 <SebastianRahtz>i think i tried to explain XML to this bloke once
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Jul 07 09:47:39 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>*brians here.....
Jul 07 09:48:22 <JeremySpellerUCL>he's turned on and he hasn't eben shown us a slide yet!
Jul 07 09:48:34 <SebastianRahtz>he's tuned me on too
Jul 07 09:48:34 <MilesB>Ah - is he CGI555?
Jul 07 09:48:42 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>Brian is CGI555
Jul 07 09:48:53 <MilesB>sneaky
Jul 07 09:48:59 <JeremySpellerUCL>Morning Brian
Jul 07 09:49:14 <--Sarika_1 (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has left #iwmw-2005
Jul 07 09:49:15 <CGI555>How do I change my nickname?
Jul 07 09:49:16 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>I am sure in the opening talk about how to use wireless he said, ""choose a nickname which identifies you
Jul 07 09:49:24 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>do /nick brian
Jul 07 09:49:48 <CGI555>Hi Jeremy, have you decided how you want to do your interactive stuff?
Jul 07 09:49:56 ---CGI555 is now known as BrianKelly
Jul 07 09:49:58 <SebastianRahtz>its a womens' prison, innit?
Jul 07 09:50:06 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>wooohooo
Jul 07 09:50:31 <JeremySpellerUCL>Still tying to get some of the technology to work Brian - speal to you later
Jul 07 09:50:44 <MilesB>This is fun
Jul 07 09:50:53 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>Theres a job at University of London
Jul 07 09:50:58 <dbailey635>where's manchester? cheeky!
Jul 07 09:51:15 <SebastianRahtz>his list is 4 years old
Jul 07 09:51:27 <Tim>he rae does not happen every year
Jul 07 09:51:34 <MilesB>its the latest RAE though
Jul 07 09:51:43 <Tim>the next one is 2006 i think
Jul 07 09:51:45 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>the rae is due in 2006
Jul 07 09:51:59 <MilesB>We just got to 32 in the Guardian - we were pleased
Jul 07 09:52:01 <JeremySpellerUCL>no - it's 2008
Jul 07 09:52:06 <SebastianRahtz>i like this. pure sledging
Jul 07 09:52:29 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>erm, are you sure, I out Head of school retires at the end of the rae and thats 2006
Jul 07 09:52:45 <JeremySpellerUCL>def 2008
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Jul 07 09:53:13 <SebastianRahtz>brian's keeping mum i see
Jul 07 09:53:26 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>"The main body of the assessment will take place in 2007-08, with outcomes to be published by the funding bodies in December 2008."
Jul 07 09:53:36 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>so were all wrong?
Jul 07 09:53:46 <MilesB>2008 http://www.rae.ac.uk/default.htm
Jul 07 09:53:53 <SebastianRahtz>thats why your head is cutting and running...
Jul 07 09:54:40 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>I konw nothing, but he is of an appropriate age
Jul 07 09:55:06 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>the top 4 people at aston are all due for retirement
Jul 07 09:55:26 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>I like these slides :)
Jul 07 09:55:50 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>brians reading non-conference stuff
Jul 07 09:55:53 <JeremySpellerUCL>me to
Jul 07 09:56:04 <SebastianRahtz>is brian configuring a web server?
Jul 07 09:56:13 <JeremySpellerUCL>wish he would
Jul 07 09:56:18 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>overdue ideas website?
Jul 07 09:56:30 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>sssh hes back
Jul 07 09:56:51 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>now hes reading to catch up with the conversation'
Jul 07 09:56:59 <JeremySpellerUCL>too late
Jul 07 09:57:23 <BrianKelly>hi world
Jul 07 09:57:46 <SebastianRahtz>this is your world, and welcome to it
Jul 07 09:59:47 <dbailey635>where's manchester? cheeky!
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Jul 07 09:59:58 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>its called a search engine
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Jul 07 10:00:32 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>oh dear dbaileys struggling
Jul 07 10:00:56 <MilesB>Guardian web site thing good!
Jul 07 10:01:02 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>bad
Jul 07 10:01:07 <MilesB>We were 100 out of 200
Jul 07 10:01:19 <JeremySpellerUCL>Yeh - 68 and proud
Jul 07 10:01:27 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>167
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Jul 07 10:01:32 <MilesB>ooh - hark at him with his 68
Jul 07 10:02:21 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>does his VC have a computer
Jul 07 10:02:22 <DavidBailey>we hate the guardian too. and we came 48th
Jul 07 10:02:38 <JeremySpellerUCL>Did you read the guy who design No 2 and No 179 at pretty much the same time to the same standards?
Jul 07 10:03:05 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>really
Jul 07 10:03:26 <JeremySpellerUCL>I'll remember his name in a minute
Jul 07 10:03:32 <SebastianRahtz>head
Jul 07 10:03:32 <DavidBailey>he was prety scathing of the ressearch
Jul 07 10:03:43 <DavidBailey>paul boaf
Jul 07 10:03:47 <JeremySpellerUCL>headscape
Jul 07 10:04:04 <DavidBailey>boag?
Jul 07 10:04:05 <SebastianRahtz>he has an agenda tho, selling hisself
Jul 07 10:04:40 <BrianKelly>I emailed him last week. Would it be worth invited him to speak next year?
Jul 07 10:05:09 <JeremySpellerUCL>he sounded quite interesting if a bit self-satisfied
Jul 07 10:05:42 <BrianKelly>BTW the transcript of this discussion will be open to all.
Jul 07 10:06:20 <JeremySpellerUCL>Oh dear, how sad, never mind...
Jul 07 10:06:29 <DavidBailey>that means we have to check our spelling folks.
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Jul 07 10:08:02 <Tim>explosion on london underground. entire network closed!!
Jul 07 10:09:04 <--DavidBailey has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
Jul 07 10:10:06 <JeremySpellerUCL>explosion where?
Jul 07 10:10:15 <Tim>liverpool street
Jul 07 10:10:35 <JeremySpellerUCL>Grief
Jul 07 10:10:40 <Tim>metropolitan line, two trains collided, several wounded
Jul 07 10:10:58 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>Tthe bbc site is grinding?
Jul 07 10:11:02 <JMHarmer>bbc news site not responding - u saw the news report? prrsumably everyone else is trying to now.
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Jul 07 10:11:16 <Tim>try the blessed guardian
Jul 07 10:13:08 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>okay whos running squid?
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Jul 07 10:14:00 <BrianKelly>I think David's styleis quite interesting in terms of engaging people's attention, by being so un-spin-doctored
Jul 07 10:14:15 <JeremySpellerUCL>yes - very refreshing
Jul 07 10:14:25 <BrianKelly>I got thru to the BCC Wb site by reading theRSS file - and then found http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4659093.stm
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Jul 07 10:14:58 <BrianKelly>Challenge for you Jeremy :-)
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Jul 07 10:15:12 <JeremySpellerUCL>hoho
Jul 07 10:15:24 <MilesB>Missed that - fell off the wlan again
Jul 07 10:15:48 <JeremySpellerUCL>...and it'll be after lunch and they'll all still be in the bar...
Jul 07 10:15:53 <BrianKelly>Hope you can cope with the knowledge that we'll all be chatting about you while you're talinh
Jul 07 10:16:14 <JeremySpellerUCL>I'll manage
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Jul 07 10:17:12 <MilesB>We are celebrating our 40th anniversary
Jul 07 10:17:16 <MilesB>Working weel
Jul 07 10:17:29 <MilesB>Except people though we were older!
Jul 07 10:17:48 <MilesB>History doesn't always work for you we found
Jul 07 10:18:20 <JeremySpellerUCL>Our lot have suddenly decided they want to be modern now
Jul 07 10:18:36 <MilesB>What about your lovely architecture?
Jul 07 10:18:59 <JeremySpellerUCL>All gone from 1 August - watch that space
Jul 07 10:19:05 <MilesB>I am sitting near the loudest impact typist in the room
Jul 07 10:19:14 <SebastianRahtz>was that explosion set off by UCL?
Jul 07 10:19:40 <JeremySpellerUCL>Not funny
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Jul 07 10:20:03 <Tim> agree, not funny at all
Jul 07 10:20:10 <MilesB>best move on guys
Jul 07 10:20:11 <SebastianRahtz>apologies.
Jul 07 10:21:24 <JMHarmer>i can hear that typist too but i can't see where u are.
Jul 07 10:21:39 <MilesB>Half way up scaffolding
Jul 07 10:21:51 <MilesB>right hand side as looking at speaker
Jul 07 10:21:58 <MilesB>She is left hand side
Jul 07 10:22:10 <JMHarmer>i must be abeam you lhs
Jul 07 10:22:21 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>we could play a wav file at the same time to indicate our locations
Jul 07 10:22:22 <MilesB>Ah
Jul 07 10:22:24 <JMHarmer>got her
Jul 07 10:22:35 <MilesB>She's put it away now
Jul 07 10:22:37 <MilesB>Phew
Jul 07 10:22:43 <MilesB>I like marketing
Jul 07 10:23:01 <JMHarmer>i like markets
Jul 07 10:23:10 <MilesB>flea?
Jul 07 10:23:19 <JMHarmer>yup, cheapskate me...
Jul 07 10:23:21 <JeremySpellerUCL>bull
Jul 07 10:23:42 <MilesB>marketing is bull or is JMHarmer not a cheapskate?
Jul 07 10:23:52 <JeremySpellerUCL>bull maket
Jul 07 10:23:56 <JMHarmer>or bull markets?
Jul 07 10:23:57 <MilesB>oh
Jul 07 10:24:02 <JMHarmer>ah u beat me to it
Jul 07 10:24:58 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>is there anyway to tab around the tabs in firefox?
Jul 07 10:25:04 <--Randy has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
Jul 07 10:25:09 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>akin to the alt-tab thing in widnows
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Jul 07 10:26:18 <JeremySpellerUCL>well done him - very good
Jul 07 10:26:19 <MilesB>Just my favourite talk so far
Jul 07 10:26:37 <DavidBailey>great speaker!
Jul 07 10:27:27 <MilesB>Royal Egham
Jul 07 10:27:37 <SebastianRahtz>next to heathrow
Jul 07 10:27:47 <JeremySpellerUCL>at least they lost Bedford
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Jul 07 10:28:39 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>dunno the warwick one was pretty cool
Jul 07 10:28:40 <JMHarmer>ooo, tea time
Jul 07 10:28:44 <JMHarmer>ttfn.
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Jul 07 10:28:49 <JeremySpellerUCL>see ya
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Jul 07 10:29:45 <owen>tabs in FF use alt+number
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Jul 07 11:05:05 <Greg_Tourte>morning all!
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Jul 07 11:05:51 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>morning again
Jul 07 11:05:53 <JMHarmer>morning.
Jul 07 11:05:57 <JeremySpellerUCL>hi
Jul 07 11:06:18 -->CGI555 (c24217ac@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 07 11:06:28 -->MilesB (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 07 11:06:36 <MilesB>Hello again
Jul 07 11:07:07 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>wheres randy
Jul 07 11:07:15 ---CGI555 is now known as BrianKelly
Jul 07 11:07:17 <JeremySpellerUCL>it's for austronauts?
Jul 07 11:07:18 <SebastianRahtz>next to me
Jul 07 11:07:31 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>is he not coming online?
Jul 07 11:07:59 -->Randy (81437434@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 07 11:08:24 <Em_Tonkin>sorry if anyone got that "throttled: reconnecting too fast"
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Jul 07 11:08:47 *Em_Tonkin fixes
Jul 07 11:09:30 <SebastianRahtz>scary stuff with bombs. not impossible mchester next?
Jul 07 11:10:32 >Greg_Tourte<I have changed a setting on unrealircd. Do I need to HUP it?
Jul 07 11:10:41 -->EmTonkin (c2421662@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 07 11:11:12 <AndrewSavory>Sebastian: unlikely imho
Jul 07 11:11:15 <--Randy has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
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Jul 07 11:11:22 <JeremySpellerUCL>very scary - one right next to where I walk every morning at the time I would have been there - makes you think...
Jul 07 11:11:23 *AndrewSavory tempts fate
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Jul 07 11:11:42 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>LOondon is an easy target most of the Uk police are in scotland at the moment
Jul 07 11:12:02 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>randy: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/05/11/review_dell_inspiron_xps/
Jul 07 11:13:42 <JeremySpellerUCL>It's nothing like Brian!!
Jul 07 11:14:33 <EmTonkin>that XPS looks a lot like a desktop masquerading as a luggable
Jul 07 11:14:57 <Randy>Thanks Stuart!
Jul 07 11:15:16 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>erm yep,
Jul 07 11:15:27 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>but think, Doom 3 on the go
Jul 07 11:15:50 <Randy>3.9 kg is too heavy for me - I'm only little
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Jul 07 11:15:58 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>no comment
Jul 07 11:16:30 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>thats why we have pilot cases now
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Jul 07 11:16:40 <MilesB>oops - browser crash
Jul 07 11:16:49 <SebastianRahtz>someone explain the connect between Franklinoncms, london bombs, and game pcs?
Jul 07 11:16:55 <AndrewSavory>EmTonkin: if anyone suggests kebab tonight, tell me not to please?
Jul 07 11:16:59 <MilesB>I was going to ask if previous slide meant drug smoking priests were running the CMS
Jul 07 11:17:15 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>are you suffering dear?
Jul 07 11:17:15 <EmTonkin>hehe
Jul 07 11:17:23 <AndrewSavory>bit of a sore head ;-)
Jul 07 11:17:36 <EmTonkin>see, your mistake was *eating* it
Jul 07 11:17:37 *Stuart_Steele_Aston stands 20 paces frin eM
Jul 07 11:17:38 <AndrewSavory>oh lord, swindon and brighton next
Jul 07 11:18:15 <AndrewSavory>EmTonkin: yeah, probably. but i have to have -something- to blame the dodgy stomach on, other than the 50 pints ;-)
Jul 07 11:18:23 <EmTonkin>hehe
Jul 07 11:18:43 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>50 pints = 1 man party
Jul 07 11:18:50 <MilesB>I'm having trouble recording this talk - too many pictures and too many questions
Jul 07 11:19:07 <MilesB>Won't be hiring him them
Jul 07 11:19:10 <SebastianRahtz>swindon and brighton next what?
Jul 07 11:19:27 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>he was in my paralell session
Jul 07 11:19:28 <MilesB>Ok - whos got the sugar plum fairy ring tone
Jul 07 11:19:32 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>lol
Jul 07 11:19:35 <EmTonkin>bless
Jul 07 11:19:54 <AndrewSavory>Sebastian: Swindon and Brighton rail stations shut
Jul 07 11:19:59 <EmTonkin>oh
Jul 07 11:20:00 <AndrewSavory>all central london bus services stopped
Jul 07 11:20:38 <JMHarmer>sugar plumb was near me...
Jul 07 11:21:36 <AndrewSavory>eh, looks like they've blocked FTP port too. Cretins!
Jul 07 11:21:42 <SebastianRahtz>1120 Tony Blair will be making a live, televised statement on the crisis at midday
Jul 07 11:21:44 <SebastianRahtz>use VPN
Jul 07 11:21:53 <AndrewSavory>"we'll provide wifi, but render it useless..."
Jul 07 11:22:05 <AndrewSavory>Sebastian: yup, bouncing off my server atm, but PITA!
Jul 07 11:22:10 <EmTonkin>Tony Blair will be making a televised statement? Great - my confidence in the nation is restored.
Jul 07 11:22:15 <MilesB>now now
Jul 07 11:22:33 <MilesB>Did you hear Rory bremner explaining how to do Tony?
Jul 07 11:22:42 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>WHO IS THIS? http://www.aston.ac.uk/alumni/apex/apex05/vc.jsp
Jul 07 11:23:06 <MilesB>He said you use the body language that says "Why can't you see, I'm doing this cause I love you?"
Jul 07 11:23:25 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>lol
Jul 07 11:23:25 <AndrewSavory>perhaps Tone could send some of his stormtroopers back from the G8 party
Jul 07 11:23:26 <SebastianRahtz>sounds like Brian Kelly
Jul 07 11:23:26 <EmTonkin>hehe
Jul 07 11:24:38 <MilesB>Ho ho
Jul 07 11:25:08 <EmTonkin>sorry. My sense of humour appears to have reached a new low
Jul 07 11:25:32 <MilesB>I would tell you who just beeped but he's sitting next to me and on IRC so I'm scared!
Jul 07 11:25:54 <EmTonkin>incidentally I don't know if Greg mentioned it earlier, but I understand that port 6667 is now open on dev.ukoln.ac.uk if anyone feels like using it
Jul 07 11:26:11 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>no one mentioned it
Jul 07 11:26:22 <MilesB>Oh god - what is port 6667 please?
Jul 07 11:26:35 <MilesB>Tell me 666 isn't the port number of the beast
Jul 07 11:26:36 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>i thought that was the irc port?
Jul 07 11:26:53 <MilesB>A portal is like an iceberg
Jul 07 11:26:57 <Greg_Tourte>6667 is the standard irc port
Jul 07 11:26:59 <MilesB>Help me
Jul 07 11:27:13 <SebastianRahtz>what does that mean in practice?
Jul 07 11:27:21 <Randy>it's cold and lifeless
Jul 07 11:27:54 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>help you what?
Jul 07 11:28:05 <JeremySpellerUCL>don't go there
Jul 07 11:28:11 <MilesB>!
Jul 07 11:28:13 <SebastianRahtz>how do I use xchat then, knowing this magic number 6667?
Jul 07 11:28:19 <EmTonkin>it is the standard irc port. Ergo you can tunnel to it if you feel like using a more exciting client
Jul 07 11:28:20 <Greg_Tourte>it means that if at your end they let you connect to irc servers, you can use your favorite irc client to connect to this server instead of the CGI::IRC
Jul 07 11:28:34 <MilesB>I meant spare me from iceberg analogies
Jul 07 11:28:45 <Greg_Tourte>SebastianRahtz: you shouldn't need to specify the port number as 6667 is the default
Jul 07 11:28:55 <EmTonkin>but you will need to bounce off another server, because irc ports are closed from here afaik.
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Jul 07 11:29:03 <savs>wooohoooo!
Jul 07 11:29:05 <JeremySpellerUCL>"favourite" and "IRC" are surely mutually exclusive?
Jul 07 11:29:07 <Greg_Tourte>simply connect using /server dev.ukoln.ac.uk
Jul 07 11:29:08 <savs>a decent irc client :-)
Jul 07 11:29:20 <EmTonkin>now now. I *like* IRC.
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Jul 07 11:29:39 <MilesB>Arrrggggghhhhh
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Jul 07 11:30:16 <EmTonkin>if it was good enough for 1994... ;)
Jul 07 11:30:34 <MilesB>Ok - all conclusions brought to us through the medium of art should be discouraged
Jul 07 11:30:43 <MilesB>It wil be balloon modelling next
Jul 07 11:30:57 <JeremySpellerUCL>...it's good enough for 1984
Jul 07 11:31:11 <MilesB>Note to self: don't minute that in Ariadne report
Jul 07 11:31:13 -->SebastianRahtz_ (chatzilla@rox-3EBCBA45.vpn.ox.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 07 11:31:28 <SebastianRahtz_>so this is chatzilla.
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Jul 07 11:32:04 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>which ssid do i need to be connected to
Jul 07 11:32:09 <SebastianRahtz>conference
Jul 07 11:32:26 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>and whats the IRC server called?
Jul 07 11:32:29 <MilesB>Does conference bounce you after an hour, or only university?
Jul 07 11:32:44 <Greg_Tourte>Stuart_Steele_Aston: dev.ukoln.ac.uk
Jul 07 11:32:54 <SebastianRahtz>only university i think. i met that a few weeks ago. conference us friendlier
Jul 07 11:32:59 <EmTonkin>conference doesn't seem to bounce you off
Jul 07 11:33:14 <MilesB>Right - I'm trying conference - see you in a min.
Jul 07 11:33:43 <AndrewSavory>is there a tv in the bar?
Jul 07 11:33:56 <AndrewSavory>(or anywhere nearby)
Jul 07 11:34:09 <EmTonkin>i suppose so
Jul 07 11:34:13 <AndrewSavory>don't wanna miss Neighb^w tony's speech
Jul 07 11:34:31 <--MilesB has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 07 11:34:38 <EmTonkin>I can live without watching it to be frank.
Jul 07 11:34:41 <AndrewSavory>SebastianRahtz: what vpn solution do you use?
Jul 07 11:35:03 <SebastianRahtz>vpnc under linux
Jul 07 11:35:11 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>:( mirc wont connect
Jul 07 11:35:19 <JeremySpellerUCL>I keep trying my Cisco one and it don't work
Jul 07 11:35:30 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>i cant get the cisco client to work either
Jul 07 11:35:32 <SebastianRahtz>open source rulez
Jul 07 11:35:45 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>is there a win32 version of chatzilla
Jul 07 11:35:52 <AndrewSavory>Stuart_Steele_Aston: you need to go via a tunnel to the outside ...
Jul 07 11:35:56 <JeremySpellerUCL>Cisco at "home" - have to use it
Jul 07 11:35:57 <EmTonkin>if you have putty you can always just tunnel through that.
Jul 07 11:36:14 <SebastianRahtz>isnt chatzilla just a firefox plugin?
Jul 07 11:36:20 <JeremySpellerUCL>yes
Jul 07 11:36:22 <EmTonkin>yeah
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Jul 07 11:36:50 <MilesB>Ok - back now
Jul 07 11:37:38 <JeremySpellerUCL>Anyone feel qualified to help me tunnel out of here? I need vpn or some such for part of my talk this pm
Jul 07 11:37:40 <SebastianRahtz>looks like a rerun of Madrid from what i can see in guardian
Jul 07 11:37:52 <SebastianRahtz>what OS, Jeremy?
Jul 07 11:37:59 <JeremySpellerUCL>OSX
Jul 07 11:38:03 <EmTonkin>a much smaller rerun of Madrid, then
Jul 07 11:38:13 <EmTonkin>unless the BBC's reporting is wildly wrong
Jul 07 11:38:24 <AndrewSavory>JeremySpellerUCL: get fugu
Jul 07 11:38:25 <SebastianRahtz>hard to tell, surely?
Jul 07 11:38:34 <AndrewSavory>http://rsug.itd.umich.edu/software/fugu/
Jul 07 11:38:46 <JeremySpellerUCL>how does it work savs+
Jul 07 11:38:48 <AndrewSavory>do you have an external server you can log into via ssh?
Jul 07 11:38:56 <JeremySpellerUCL>possibly
Jul 07 11:39:02 <AndrewSavory>whereabouts are you? I can show you after this
Jul 07 11:39:28 <JeremySpellerUCL>4th row from the back, lhs looking forward
Jul 07 11:39:50 <--Stuart_Steele_Aston has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 07 11:40:15 <AndrewSavory>ok ... if you want to wander down to the group of people huddled around the power sockets on front right, i can help you sort it out
Jul 07 11:40:28 <JeremySpellerUCL>Ta
Jul 07 11:40:39 <EmTonkin>six explosions apparently
Jul 07 11:40:49 <--BrianKelly has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
Jul 07 11:41:23 <EmTonkin>and the president of the EU parliament just in the words of the bbc blamed terrorism for it.
Jul 07 11:41:36 <JeremySpellerUCL>Need to go and get my power adapter - see you after this savs
Jul 07 11:41:58 <EmTonkin>oh for a better battery
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Jul 07 11:42:12 <stuart_steele>nope cant get on chatzilla either
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Jul 07 11:42:29 <stuart_steele>connected to conference
Jul 07 11:42:30 <JeremySpellerUCL>batteries are indeed the limiting factor of mobile technology...
Jul 07 11:42:37 <SebastianRahtz>which terrorists tho. G8elated? or the usual.
Jul 07 11:42:48 <stuart_steele>noit when your 8ft from a plug
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Jul 07 11:43:45 <stuart_steele>bbc website seems a little faster now
Jul 07 11:43:59 <EmTonkin>I expect Blair will let us know who to blame
Jul 07 11:44:25 <EmTonkin>rather surprised noone has declared themselves responsible yet
Jul 07 11:45:27 <stuart_steele>its obviously Terror related as Prim Blair will be doing a TV thang
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Jul 07 11:45:48 <EmTonkin>or terror relatable, as it were.
Jul 07 11:45:55 <AndrewSavory>perhaps tone just wanted to get out of boring talks with bush etc
Jul 07 11:46:30 <SebastianRahtz>perhaps he'll blame it on global warming then
Jul 07 11:46:37 <stuart_steele>He could borrow bushes slides
Jul 07 11:47:22 <stuart_steele>the guy sitting next to me has just vpn'd out no problem
Jul 07 11:47:31 <stuart_steele>*gutted*
Jul 07 11:47:42 <SebastianRahtz>someone summarize Franklin for me, I havent been paying attention
Jul 07 11:47:53 <JeremySpellerUCL>which guy, with what
Jul 07 11:48:09 <stuart_steele>do you know where I am?
Jul 07 11:48:12 <JeremySpellerUCL>no
Jul 07 11:48:17 <AndrewSavory>er, manchester? ;-)
Jul 07 11:48:39 <EmTonkin>what I've got out of it thus far is effectively: people don't like inadequately targeted software.
Jul 07 11:48:43 <stuart_steele>left by pillar sitting cross legged on the left side
Jul 07 11:49:17 <stuart_steele>i am getting some water take note
Jul 07 11:49:18 <JeremySpellerUCL>got you - which is excellent news as you're sitting next to my collaborator!!
Jul 07 11:49:19 <--stuart_steele has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
Jul 07 11:49:31 <EmTonkin>probably a good point to make, really.
Jul 07 11:49:41 <MilesB>Sebastian can't stop beeping
Jul 07 11:49:46 <MilesB>Oops - gave it away!
Jul 07 11:49:56 <SebastianRahtz>how do you stop thunderbird beeping?
Jul 07 11:50:07 <EmTonkin>stuart_steele: for a minute I thought you were going to stand on my foot there ;)
Jul 07 11:50:08 <Greg_Tourte>xset -b?
Jul 07 11:50:10 <JeremySpellerUCL>turn all sound off??
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Jul 07 11:50:18 <EmTonkin>speakerectomy
Jul 07 11:50:19 <MilesB>Ah - good q
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Jul 07 11:51:09 -->Randy (81437434@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 07 11:51:41 <EmTonkin>(if he writes a paper about collaborative newsreading in a conference setting...)
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Jul 07 12:08:51 <Greg_Tourte>woops? what happened?
Jul 07 12:09:07 <Greg_Tourte>somebody tripped over the wireless access point?
Jul 07 12:10:07 <AndrewSavory>weird
Jul 07 12:10:13 <AndrewSavory>all the web users gone?
Jul 07 12:12:22 -->JeremySpellerUCL (c242175b@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 07 12:13:58 <AndrewSavory>hi JeremySpellerUCL ... need help with fugu?
Jul 07 12:17:10 <Greg_Tourte>well Sebastian was not using CGI:IRC so it is not only that
Jul 07 12:18:08 <AndrewSavory>true
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Jul 07 12:27:08 <JeremySpellerUCL>thanks andrew - found that my collaborator had managed a VPN connection on his machine. Still annoyed that the Toshiba beat the Mac on this occasion!!!
Jul 07 12:27:58 <AndrewSavory>heh
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Jul 07 13:57:20 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>wb
Jul 07 13:57:45 -->CGI932 (c2421660@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 07 13:57:59 <MilesB>Hello there
Jul 07 13:58:15 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>someone new or brian without a username again
Jul 07 13:58:36 <MilesB>Ah - cgi932, who are you?
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Jul 07 14:00:31 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>i am me
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Jul 07 14:00:58 <CGI932>barbara, but I have no idea how to put my name in
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Jul 07 14:01:30 <AndrewSavory>what's with the suit?!
Jul 07 14:01:34 <MilesB>Huh - whats his excuse?
Jul 07 14:01:39 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>suit :)
Jul 07 14:01:46 <AndrewSavory>;-)
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Jul 07 14:02:04 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>hmmn I think I am lagging
Jul 07 14:02:21 <MadScot>I like it's big, it's old and it's in London
Jul 07 14:02:40 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>isnt that like ken clarke
Jul 07 14:03:02 <MilesB>What is the project?
Jul 07 14:03:13 <AndrewSavory>apparently UCL have lost comms, so the live demo part of this may not work
Jul 07 14:03:19 <MilesB>Hooray!
Jul 07 14:03:29 <MilesB>:-(
Jul 07 14:03:40 <AndrewSavory>i have anti-lag ;-)
Jul 07 14:04:17 <AndrewSavory>hey, how many mac users here?
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Jul 07 14:05:03 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>show off
Jul 07 14:05:07 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>:P
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Jul 07 14:06:19 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>oooh\busy
Jul 07 14:06:39 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>wheres Seb?
Jul 07 14:06:52 <JMHarmer>bottom right at the front
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Jul 07 14:07:00 <MilesB>Trying to shut up his laptop!
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Jul 07 14:09:34 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>welcome back cgi555
Jul 07 14:09:43 <MilesB>Good name
Jul 07 14:10:01 <MilesB>Isit /nick to give yourself a name?
Jul 07 14:10:09 <CGI555>nick /BrianKelly
Jul 07 14:10:19 ---CGI555 is now known as BrianKelly
Jul 07 14:10:24 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>erm /nick
Jul 07 14:10:28 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>woo hoo
Jul 07 14:10:31 <JMHarmer>brian, we all know you as cgi555 anyway!
Jul 07 14:11:03 <AndrewSavory>http://www-us.flickr.com/groups/londonexplosions/pool/
Jul 07 14:11:11 <AndrewSavory>http://www-us.flickr.com/photos/planetmike/24237323/in/pool-londonexplosions/
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Jul 07 14:13:12 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>de he say the editor was called poo
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Jul 07 14:14:14 <MilesB>Whats wrong with see page 10
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Jul 07 14:14:48 <MilesB>I can relate to this slide - my paper and dtp colleagues do like things a particular way!
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Jul 07 14:14:59 <JMHarmer>makes me laff though when i find web pages that say 'this page intentionally left blank'
Jul 07 14:15:07 <MilesB>hoho
Jul 07 14:15:38 <MilesB>PTO is always good too
Jul 07 14:15:54 <BrianKelly>Want to add some of the comments on the Wiki?
Jul 07 14:15:56 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>or refer to the digram on page 11
Jul 07 14:16:34 <SebastianRahtz>remind me where the wiki is, Brian
Jul 07 14:16:39 <JMHarmer>Wonder if anyone turns their monitor round when they see PTO...
Jul 07 14:16:45 <DavidBailey>see picture above when it is really to the side gets me.
Jul 07 14:17:31 <SebastianRahtz>if you back to "vide infra " and "vide supra", it'll suit both technologies.
Jul 07 14:18:49 <DavidBailey>but notbeveryone is that well educated to read latin.
Jul 07 14:19:41 <MilesB>I tried the wiki but two people were in it!
Jul 07 14:20:04 <BrianKelly>Link from http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/web-focus/events/workshops/webmaster-2005/talks/speller/
Jul 07 14:20:07 <AndrewSavory>http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/web-focus/events/workshops/webmaster-2005/talks/speller/
Jul 07 14:20:08 <AndrewSavory>heh oops
Jul 07 14:20:18 <AndrewSavory>-> You can use the Wikalong annotation service to provide comments on this page.
Jul 07 14:20:39 <DavidBailey>it wont let you post messages if the page has changed while you are typing
Jul 07 14:20:58 <AndrewSavory>i know quark is a bloated p.o.s. ;-)
Jul 07 14:21:11 <BrianKelly>Note that the links uses a refer page so foo and foot.html have different annoation pages
Jul 07 14:23:32 <SebastianRahtz>i'm a klutz. i install wikalong, but how do i make it do summat? has it added a menu item somewhere?
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Jul 07 14:23:50 <AndrewSavory>rofl: "How London beat Paris, I have no idea though. Must be some money changing hands again at the IOC. I mean, SUMMER Olympics in London? It's like holding the Winter Olympics in L.A."
Jul 07 14:23:59 <SebastianRahtz>people who cant speak Latin surely have no place in a modern university?
Jul 07 14:24:24 <SebastianRahtz>are you paying attention, Andrew?
Jul 07 14:24:33 <AndrewSavory>totally
Jul 07 14:24:46 <BrianKelly>NB that UKOLN is not responsible for any libellous comments made on this IRC channel :-)
Jul 07 14:25:04 <MilesB>Sebastian - view sidebar wikalong
Jul 07 14:25:06 <DavidBailey>IT staff have no need for Latin
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Jul 07 14:25:21 <AndrewSavory>wonder what their db schema looks like?
Jul 07 14:25:31 <AndrewSavory>(why do people use mysql?!)
Jul 07 14:25:48 <MilesB>Because it works
Jul 07 14:25:52 <MilesB>Its unix
Jul 07 14:25:57 <MilesB>its quick
Jul 07 14:25:57 <JMHarmer>and free
Jul 07 14:26:03 <--CGI156 has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 07 14:26:06 <AndrewSavory>... and it's not as good as postgres
Jul 07 14:26:08 <MilesB>Its optimised for lightweight web apps
Jul 07 14:26:12 <AndrewSavory><insert flamewar here/>
Jul 07 14:26:17 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>free and there are some real nice web interface
Jul 07 14:26:24 <MilesB>Don't know postgres
Jul 07 14:26:33 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>i dont know mysql
Jul 07 14:26:34 <MilesB>Suspect php and postgres is quite good too
Jul 07 14:26:36 <SebastianRahtz>thats not wellformed XML
Jul 07 14:26:41 <JMHarmer>it's the M in LAMP...
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Jul 07 14:27:01 <AndrewSavory>SebastianRahtz: :-P
Jul 07 14:27:02 <MilesB>Whats the L, A and P?
Jul 07 14:27:07 <AndrewSavory>linux
Jul 07 14:27:09 <AndrewSavory>apache
Jul 07 14:27:11 <JMHarmer>linux apach mysql php
Jul 07 14:27:12 <AndrewSavory>php/perl
Jul 07 14:27:16 <MilesB>Ah
Jul 07 14:27:17 <SebastianRahtz>"IT staff have no need for Latin". discuss. honestly, how can you say that? I use latin every day
Jul 07 14:27:22 <MilesB>thanks
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Jul 07 14:27:40 <SebastianRahtz>this wiki is a tad clumsy
Jul 07 14:27:43 <AndrewSavory>SebastianRahtz: you're not an average IT staff tho ;-)
Jul 07 14:28:18 <DavidBailey>brave to do a demo!
Jul 07 14:28:53 <AndrewSavory> Sorry, this page is only available to visitors with proper credentials.
Jul 07 14:28:55 <AndrewSavory>awww, damn
Jul 07 14:29:03 <AndrewSavory>my attempts to subvert their website denied :-(
Jul 07 14:30:27 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>whilst they do thisw has anyone got a video of the set that James brown did at Live8?
Jul 07 14:30:40 <DavidBailey>this is why you should use screenshots... or at least have them handy just in case
Jul 07 14:31:12 <MilesB>I thought knowledge of Latin was a sine qua non when recruiting IT staff
Jul 07 14:31:30 <SebastianRahtz>and Greek, of course, to at least reading level
Jul 07 14:31:35 <MilesB>ooh, Andrews playing with the man's anatomy
Jul 07 14:31:49 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>that'll be the phone
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Jul 07 14:31:56 <SebastianRahtz>wasnt James Brown on J Ross, not live8?
Jul 07 14:32:01 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>both
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Jul 07 14:32:21 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>and I missed them both, he was on JR on friday, wed is a repeat
Jul 07 14:32:26 <MilesB>Hm - my greek isn't much good
Jul 07 14:32:35 <JMHarmer>geek or greek?
Jul 07 14:32:37 <MilesB>Kyrie eleison doesn't go far these days
Jul 07 14:33:04 <SebastianRahtz>o tempora o mores
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Jul 07 14:33:45 <TimM>hi adrian
Jul 07 14:33:46 <DavidBailey>stop showing off how well educated you are!
Jul 07 14:34:08 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>fingers crossed
Jul 07 14:34:38 <DavidBailey>they got there in the end. well done!
Jul 07 14:34:42 <SebastianRahtz>i know latin. you guys know IT! that makes you gods
Jul 07 14:34:58 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>the funny aspects of this, is the fact that quark is on the windows machine.....
Jul 07 14:35:04 <Randy>Gosh, I only know Sebastian.
Jul 07 14:35:09 <MilesB>Oh yes
Jul 07 14:35:13 <MilesB>Quark on windows?
Jul 07 14:35:24 <SebastianRahtz>this is like that saying about dogs walking on their legs
Jul 07 14:35:36 <JMHarmer>also funny is a room of techies applauding some tech... ;)
Jul 07 14:35:41 <AndrewSavory>anyone curious to see if they implemented locking? ;-)
Jul 07 14:35:51 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>have you seen the piccy on the bbc website of that bus?
Jul 07 14:35:52 <MilesB>Ice cream on toast
Jul 07 14:36:08 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>ouch?
Jul 07 14:36:09 <SebastianRahtz>yuck
Jul 07 14:36:44 <TimM>i can see how you can reuse addresses and names etc but have my doubts about copy
Jul 07 14:36:55 <TimM>sorry to be on topic ;)
Jul 07 14:37:40 <Adrian_Tribe>No need to apologise Tim!
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Jul 07 14:38:49 <AndrewSavory>why are sky reporting 45 dead but the beeb only two? is the beeb going over the top on sanitising news?
Jul 07 14:39:08 ---Em_Tonkin gives channel operator status to Greg_Tourte
Jul 07 14:39:15 <TimM>or is sky more hype??
Jul 07 14:39:19 <SebastianRahtz>if was these guys I'd drop the paper entirely.
Jul 07 14:39:21 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>the guy who checks the bbc content is at lunch
Jul 07 14:39:38 <DavidBailey>they always underestimate death tolls untill an official anouncement.
Jul 07 14:39:52 <AndrewSavory>SebastianRahtz: if you were these guys you'd be using docbook or tei ;-)
Jul 07 14:40:32 <SebastianRahtz>of course. i'd have no studentson the course but the prospectus would be technically clean
Jul 07 14:40:40 <AndrewSavory>hehe
Jul 07 14:40:46 <Adrian_Tribe>We've found SITS to be limited - you certainly will need additional tables!
Jul 07 14:41:26 <SebastianRahtz>guardian says 45
Jul 07 14:41:39 <Adrian_Tribe>It looks as though we'll be using Collage for managing the prospectus publication process
Jul 07 14:42:21 <Adrian_Tribe>Good question Linda!!
Jul 07 14:43:00 <Adrian_Tribe>I'm amazed they haven't looked at this already, as this is so important
Jul 07 14:43:03 <SebastianRahtz>whats Collage?
Jul 07 14:43:26 <Adrian_Tribe>No, we can't do it in our Zope implentation
Jul 07 14:43:50 <Adrian_Tribe>It's a Doc/content Management System
Jul 07 14:44:11 <Adrian_Tribe>And don't ask how we ended up having Zope AND Collage!!
Jul 07 14:44:33 <--TimM has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
Jul 07 14:45:09 <DavidBailey>they always underestimate death tolls untill an official anouncement.
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Jul 07 14:46:18 <SebastianRahtz>if thats http://www.serena.com/Products/collage/home.asp a) its a blank page and b) why isnt it self-hosting....
Jul 07 14:46:33 <AndrewSavory>geek?! geek?! who's he calling a geek? :-)))
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Jul 07 14:47:12 <Adrian_Tribe>Oh dear. That's a good advert for Collage!!!
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Jul 07 14:48:01 <SebastianRahtz>perhaps it detects Debian
Jul 07 14:48:12 <--chrisL has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
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Jul 07 14:48:20 <Adrian_Tribe>It's not working for me, using WinXP
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Jul 07 14:48:47 <SebastianRahtz>better cancel that contract, Adrian. Ask Andrew S to bid.
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Jul 07 14:49:21 <Adrian_Tribe>:-)
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Jul 07 14:49:30 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>welcome back aqll
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Jul 07 14:50:57 <Adrian_Tribe>And most of those words are probably from Tony Grant and Charles Cristacopolous :-)
Jul 07 14:51:25 <Adrian_Tribe>Sorry, that's not charle's surname is it?
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Jul 07 14:52:59 <Adrian_Tribe>Good grief, haven't they got some real work to get on with?!
Jul 07 14:53:19 <TimM>it's always friday afternoon
Jul 07 14:53:21 <emmott>I think the key with email is that it is the best medium outside of realtime
Jul 07 14:53:34 <--mikel has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 07 14:53:39 <Adrian_Tribe>OK Stephen, you're right!
Jul 07 14:53:49 <TimM>but isn't there a problem with e-mail overload
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Jul 07 14:54:00 <TimM>inboxes getting out of control etc
Jul 07 14:54:00 <emmott>I don't like in though - 300 emails waiting for me...
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Jul 07 14:54:08 <TimM>exactly
Jul 07 14:54:11 <Adrian_Tribe>tell me about it!
Jul 07 14:54:34 <emmott>It is isn't a criticism of email necessarily, but comminucation per se
Jul 07 14:54:53 <TimM>but it is what it is being used for that's important
Jul 07 14:54:54 <SebastianRahtz>how does email compare with forums?
Jul 07 14:55:03 <TimM>or the good old phone
Jul 07 14:55:16 <DavidBailey>it also depends how you filter and manage email
Jul 07 14:55:18 <emmott>phone is an interruptive technology - realtime.
Jul 07 14:55:28 <Adrian_Tribe>E-mail is much better - I can read and reply when it suits ME.
Jul 07 14:55:33 <SebastianRahtz>phone isnt comparable, its 1:1
Jul 07 14:55:42 <TimM>yes but it can be very useful. one short call can replace many e-mails
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Jul 07 14:56:17 <TimM>i think it's about using the right 'technology' (rather call it means of communication) for the right circumstances
Jul 07 14:56:20 <SebastianRahtz>in the web manager list context?
Jul 07 14:56:24 <Adrian_Tribe>Use whatever mdium is appropriate for the query you have.
Jul 07 14:56:34 <DavidBailey>it also depends how you filter and manage email
Jul 07 14:57:01 <Adrian_Tribe>True DAvid
Jul 07 14:57:18 <emmott>Well, I'm talking about the email that has been filtered ie 300+
Jul 07 14:57:29 <TimM>but you can only automate to a certain extent
Jul 07 14:57:30 <Adrian_Tribe>:-)
Jul 07 14:57:32 <SebastianRahtz>so if I have a CSS problem do I a) ring Patrick Lauke, b) email web-support, or c)post in a web forum
Jul 07 14:57:46 <AndrewSavory>http://www.flickr.com/photos/savs/24247826/
Jul 07 14:58:06 <AndrewSavory>and http://www.andrewsavory.com/~savs/iwmw2.jpg ;-)
Jul 07 14:58:06 <DavidBailey>good rules can reduce email workload. you also have to dicipline yourself not to check your inbox alll the time
Jul 07 14:58:07 <SebastianRahtz>i just got an email about cake at work. now thats just a cruel use of email
Jul 07 14:58:11 <TimM>you choose what's the most appropriate in that situation
Jul 07 14:58:12 <Adrian_Tribe>Andrew: show off!
Jul 07 14:58:15 <AndrewSavory>(for those that were in the bar late last night)
Jul 07 14:58:24 <AndrewSavory>Adrian_Tribe: moi? ;-)
Jul 07 14:58:33 <Adrian_Tribe>:-)
Jul 07 14:59:00 <AndrewSavory>London: DHL and Royal Mail have suspended collections and deliveries till Monday.
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Jul 07 15:00:11 <SebastianRahtz>ooh brian thinks he's so clever
Jul 07 15:00:13 <AndrewSavory>we're not talking about you brian ...
Jul 07 15:00:14 <Adrian_Tribe>We'de better talk about Brian then...
Jul 07 15:00:16 <AndrewSavory>but we will be ;-)
Jul 07 15:00:47 <DavidBailey>nice web slideshow Brian!
Jul 07 15:00:47 <AndrewSavory>where is paul browning?
Jul 07 15:00:52 <Randy>York
Jul 07 15:00:56 <SebastianRahtz>gone to better things
Jul 07 15:00:57 <AndrewSavory>didn't know we were allowed to have IWMW without him
Jul 07 15:01:08 <JMHarmer>anyway I'm not clustered round a power socket (you lot beat me to it!)
Jul 07 15:01:24 <SebastianRahtz>i bet he doesnt dare use images and slow down his slideshow
Jul 07 15:01:41 <DavidBailey>we need extension leads at every seat!
Jul 07 15:01:52 <Greg_Tourte>:-)
Jul 07 15:01:56 <SebastianRahtz>you mean XML _isnt_ the universal answer? shit.
Jul 07 15:02:01 <MilesB>Jam
Jul 07 15:02:12 <SebastianRahtz>on top of the ice cream?
Jul 07 15:02:28 <JMHarmer>mmmmm... jam...
Jul 07 15:02:29 <MilesB>No - we just need more jam
Jul 07 15:02:46 <MilesB>It sticks things together, tastes nice and is available in many colours
Jul 07 15:02:50 <MilesB>Clearly the answer
Jul 07 15:02:53 <MilesB>no journey
Jul 07 15:02:57 <MilesB>Just jam
Jul 07 15:02:58 <SebastianRahtz>whats the poem by Seferis called about Odysseus?
Jul 07 15:03:17 <SebastianRahtz>about how the point of hings is the journey
Jul 07 15:03:19 <AndrewSavory>so does anyone know how to get to the museum?
Jul 07 15:03:25 <AndrewSavory>(speaking of journeys)
Jul 07 15:03:29 <JeremySpellerUCL>nope
Jul 07 15:03:59 <Adrian_Tribe>look at the map perhaps...
Jul 07 15:04:10 <DavidBailey>theres a map on the cinference website to the museum
Jul 07 15:04:13 <Adrian_Tribe>:-)
Jul 07 15:04:15 <MilesB>I hate HERO, sorry
Jul 07 15:04:48 <TimM>but it's still all about the technologies
Jul 07 15:04:59 <SebastianRahtz>still jam?
Jul 07 15:05:09 <MilesB>Yeh - ok. Bit unfair
Jul 07 15:05:09 <SebastianRahtz>even with cherries?
Jul 07 15:05:20 <TimM>i guess a bit of marmelade would be nice, too
Jul 07 15:06:22 <MilesB>Ooooh - had my name mentioned!
Jul 07 15:06:35 <SebastianRahtz>wow and wasp, self-appointed guardians rule ok
Jul 07 15:07:10 <JeremySpellerUCL>I'm in the bar recovering - be honest - was it crap?
Jul 07 15:07:24 <SebastianRahtz>just bizarre
Jul 07 15:07:36 <SebastianRahtz>but brave
Jul 07 15:07:46 <JeremySpellerUCL>You're so kind Sebastian
Jul 07 15:07:48 <--JMHarmer has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
Jul 07 15:08:12 <emmott>Jeremy, your talk was excellent - inspiring and well delivered.
Jul 07 15:08:19 <--CGI932 has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
Jul 07 15:08:32 <JeremySpellerUCL>...but crap
Jul 07 15:08:43 <MilesB>It was good mate - don't worry
Jul 07 15:09:06 <MilesB>I would love to go towards what you're doing and will be coming to ask you about it later!
Jul 07 15:09:36 <owen>nice to see something actual work like it should and deliver value
Jul 07 15:09:54 <emmott>Jeremy: I'll be looking to meet and discuss in more detail with you, ideally with one or two from my team.
Jul 07 15:10:16 <emmott>Miles: Did you get an email from Richard in my team? If so, was it useful?
Jul 07 15:10:33 <MilesB>Yep thanks - it was useful to a point - needs unpacking
Jul 07 15:10:57 <TimM>stephen, whatever happened ot gamut?
Jul 07 15:10:59 <MilesB>He did mention in general what you did, but more chat on processes, culture, desired end product etc would be good
Jul 07 15:11:15 <emmott>I'd really like to attend Duncan's local group - Glasgow's pretty cool place
Jul 07 15:11:16 <MilesB>Gamut disappeared due to busy people
Jul 07 15:11:17 <Adrian_Tribe>That was short and sweet!
Jul 07 15:11:18 <JeremySpellerUCL>Yeh - what did happen to gamut?
Jul 07 15:11:42 <TimM>need support but too busy to get it?
Jul 07 15:11:47 <TimM>or give it?
Jul 07 15:11:51 <AndrewSavory>uh-oh sales pitch!
Jul 07 15:11:52 <TimM>understand the problem tho
Jul 07 15:12:06 <Adrian_Tribe>Same as happened to the Zope user group in London/South East - people too busy!
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Jul 07 15:12:20 <emmott>Ranjit's a nice bloke.
Jul 07 15:12:43 <AndrewSavory>yeah, spoke to him in the bar last night when he woke up again ;)
Jul 07 15:12:46 <Adrian_Tribe>But knowing you can convene an ad hoc meeting to discuss a particular issue is useful
Jul 07 15:13:02 <emmott>;) Anyone interested in restarting.gamut?
Jul 07 15:13:08 <Adrian_Tribe>even if there isn't a regular schedule of meetings
Jul 07 15:13:13 <SebastianRahtz>ironic that people from Oxford cant even agree which region they are in
Jul 07 15:13:22 <emmott>:)
Jul 07 15:13:23 <MilesB>Midlands or south?
Jul 07 15:13:29 <Randy>Southeast
Jul 07 15:13:37 <mikelowndes>I'd turn up to a gamut type thing, but no time to help run it
Jul 07 15:13:44 <Adrian_Tribe>Of course Stephen - I remember how helpful it was for me in 1999 when I started
Jul 07 15:13:46 <MilesB>Oi loike Oxfud eets grate
Jul 07 15:13:57 <MilesB>get the midland phonetics?
Jul 07 15:13:58 <SebastianRahtz>what was gamut, pardon my igrnoance?
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Jul 07 15:14:12 <SebastianRahtz>sounds like west country to me
Jul 07 15:14:23 <Adrian_Tribe>I thought that was Scottish, Miles!!
Jul 07 15:14:38 <emmott>.gamut was a group Andrew Aird and I convened in 1997/1998 to get web folk in London HE/related together
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Jul 07 15:15:19 <TimM>maybe it should just have a different format
Jul 07 15:15:20 <emmott>Good point Miles!
Jul 07 15:15:30 <Adrian_Tribe>Is Andrew still enjoying life in France, do you know?
Jul 07 15:15:47 <emmott>No idea. I haven't spoken to him for years now
Jul 07 15:16:46 <TimM>getting back to gamut. maybe it could just a meeting space to discuss whatever comes to mind rather than having to organise speakers and themes
Jul 07 15:17:10 <SebastianRahtz>isnt webmastering a commodity these days? _does_ it still need a community?
Jul 07 15:17:17 <mikelowndes>that sounds better, something less formal
Jul 07 15:17:40 <TimM>it would make the workload of organising much more bearable
Jul 07 15:17:42 <emmott>How about an online service (eg discussion forum) with a regular social?
Jul 07 15:17:47 <MilesB>I think public sector uni web management is different to other similar jobs
Jul 07 15:17:55 <TimM>that sounds pretty good i think
Jul 07 15:18:08 <MilesB>The way unis run is so odd and so different
Jul 07 15:18:14 <AndrewSavory>discussion forum: why not the existing mailing list?
Jul 07 15:18:15 <emmott>I joined CILIP, but quickly left.
Jul 07 15:18:17 <SebastianRahtz>can you justify the claim, Miles?
Jul 07 15:18:46 <TimM>a mailing list is not quite a discussion forum
Jul 07 15:18:49 <SebastianRahtz>do colleges have as much in common as they are dufferent?
Jul 07 15:19:03 <emmott>I say discussion forum because I want a resource I can refer back to, and refer others to.
Jul 07 15:19:04 <Randy>It can be.
Jul 07 15:19:04 <MilesB>hmmmm - thinking
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Jul 07 15:19:22 <TimM>it's also more structured that a mailing list
Jul 07 15:19:35 <AndrewSavory>why can't you refer back to the mail archives? (other than the fact that jiscmail's web interface is awful)
Jul 07 15:19:39 <AndrewSavory>(just curious)
Jul 07 15:19:43 <MilesB>Unis are more similar to councils then anything else I think
Jul 07 15:19:44 <SebastianRahtz>unstructured
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Jul 07 15:19:59 <MilesB>Lots of different audiences
Jul 07 15:20:05 <MilesB>Some of them resident
Jul 07 15:20:13 <SebastianRahtz>threading by subject line is too weak, and you cant swutch things between threads
Jul 07 15:20:14 <MilesB>Councillors and admins like lecturers and admin
Jul 07 15:20:28 <MilesB>Squeezed for budget
Jul 07 15:20:31 <AndrewSavory>SebastianRahtz: why would you switch between threads?
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Jul 07 15:21:14 <SebastianRahtz>if someone says something that was belonged in another thread, you cant change it. but in a forum you might move posts, no?
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Jul 07 15:22:04 <MilesB>But they have argeed working practices and less flexibility within each council
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Jul 07 15:22:58 <AndrewSavory>i can't see why you'd move posts within a forum, tbh - sounds like it's making a lot of work managing the community
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Jul 07 15:23:26 <JMHarmer>you would if they moved off topic and you started another to keep it all tidy
Jul 07 15:23:29 <Randy>Aren't the kinds of discussions on web-support very short lived
Jul 07 15:23:32 <SebastianRahtz>forums are hierarchical. you cnat do that that in email
Jul 07 15:23:43 <SebastianRahtz>i mean hierarchical topic-wise.
Jul 07 15:24:02 <AndrewSavory>how do you add topics to forum posts, though?
Jul 07 15:24:22 <Randy>Forums are more useful for growing wide communities
Jul 07 15:24:27 <AndrewSavory>or rather, who would
Jul 07 15:24:29 <SebastianRahtz>this may be my fantasy about how forums work....
Jul 07 15:24:41 <SebastianRahtz>any community needs faciltators
Jul 07 15:24:51 <patrickhlauke>agree...i usually prefer forums to mailing lists for larger, ongoing discussions
Jul 07 15:24:53 <AndrewSavory>people are more useful for growing wide communities ;-)
Jul 07 15:25:02 <SebastianRahtz>geez, andrew and randy, lets organize a meeting to discuss communitiies...
Jul 07 15:25:08 <Randy>agreed :-)
Jul 07 15:25:14 <AndrewSavory>rofl yeah
Jul 07 15:25:30 <Randy>But this time, let's really talk about communities
Jul 07 15:25:31 <SebastianRahtz>(that was an in-joke, the rest of you. apologies)
Jul 07 15:25:37 <AndrewSavory>imho, you can have all sorts of wizzy tech but if you can't stimulate/maintain discussion, the community will fall apart regardless
Jul 07 15:26:00 <TimM>isn't that why the social part is important?
Jul 07 15:26:05 <AndrewSavory>yup
Jul 07 15:26:09 <Adrian_Tribe>Exactly
Jul 07 15:26:14 <SebastianRahtz>you gotta adecide what the community represents. to m mind, "webmaster" is not a sufficient discriminator
Jul 07 15:26:20 <Randy>what do you mean by the social part?
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Jul 07 15:26:25 <AndrewSavory>so pub + mailing list is the lightest simplest implementation of a community ;-)
Jul 07 15:26:39 <Randy>I disagree about the pub bit
Jul 07 15:26:47 <TimM>actually meeting in person and also talking about non related stuff for a while, eg
Jul 07 15:26:48 <SebastianRahtz>pub excludes people with family commitments, so its discriminatory
Jul 07 15:27:00 <AndrewSavory>yeah the way i feel today, i'm not sure the pub bit's such a great idea
Jul 07 15:27:01 <SebastianRahtz>and people who dont drink...
Jul 07 15:27:16 <Randy>Also, some of you guys are really ugly
Jul 07 15:27:17 <AndrewSavory>so s/pub/informal meeting place/;
Jul 07 15:27:21 <patrickhlauke>mailing lists are not, imho, that accessible to newcomers - unless you send them to a web based mail archive first so they get a feel for what has been previously discussed. with a forum, that part is a given
Jul 07 15:27:23 <AndrewSavory>heheh
Jul 07 15:27:47 <AndrewSavory>yeah, i guess forums are easier to catch up on
Jul 07 15:28:12 <AndrewSavory>though the guis on most forums i've seen are almost as hideous as mail archives
Jul 07 15:28:18 <SebastianRahtz>i identify, community wise, with people who have little geographical co-location
Jul 07 15:28:19 <Randy>But isn't this a closed community - you don't want 1000 new members do you
Jul 07 15:28:39 <SebastianRahtz>what's "this", Randy?
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Jul 07 15:28:49 <patrickhlauke>and you can segregate light-hearted banter from serious discussions easier on forums, which is not that easy to do with mailing lists unless you want to set up multiple lists
Jul 07 15:28:50 <Randy>The one we are in now
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Jul 07 15:29:30 <patrickhlauke>andrew: well, let's work on better GUIs then
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Jul 07 15:29:48 <JMHarmer>ttfn
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Jul 07 15:29:55 <AndrewSavory>patrickhlauke: agreed
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Jul 07 15:30:46 <patrickhlauke>as a follow up to brian's name check before, i'm part of the newly formed WaSP Accessibility Task Force. although the focus is on getting CMS providers and assistive tech developers to
Jul 07 15:31:19 <patrickhlauke>use standards and focus on how standards compliant markup can help accessibility, forum GUIs could also be a strand that we can look at
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Jul 07 15:31:49 <patrickhlauke>usability/accessibility/standards-compliance of default forum skins could be a nice discreet task to look at
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Jul 07 16:38:59 <EmTonkin>good afternoon
Jul 07 16:40:15 <Stuart_Steele_Aston>hi
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Jul 07 18:05:53 <patrickhlauke>ho hum
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Third day - 8 July 2005

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Jul 08 09:12:42 <MilesB>Hello there
Jul 08 09:13:05 <annemc>Hi there too
Jul 08 09:13:47 <MilesB>And also you can include URLs like http://www.kent.ac.uk/
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Jul 08 09:25:32 <AndrewSavory>mornin
Jul 08 09:25:36 <MilesB>Hey there you two
Jul 08 09:25:36 <patrickhlauke>yo
Jul 08 09:26:07 <AndrewSavory>so are all the sessions in another room today?
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Jul 08 09:26:55 <MilesB>This morning there are two impact analysis sessions in room 5 then back to the main room after tea
Jul 08 09:27:18 <patrickhlauke>but you had to register for those sessions, if i'm not mistaken?
Jul 08 09:27:33 <patrickhlauke>so only poster exhibition for us
Jul 08 09:28:09 <MilesB>Its no problem - you can still turn up
Jul 08 09:28:19 <MilesB>9.45 is the next start
Jul 08 09:28:39 <patrickhlauke>i'm at home in my undies at the moment, so it wouldn't be a pretty sight ;)
Jul 08 09:28:47 <MilesB>Oh god - please no
Jul 08 09:29:00 <patrickhlauke>i'll be there for the tea break though (fully dressed)
Jul 08 09:29:14 <patrickhlauke>finally managed to get onto jabber today
Jul 08 09:29:26 <patrickhlauke>jabber.org was just not happy with letting GAIM register
Jul 08 09:29:42 <patrickhlauke>so i finally, after looking around, managed to register a jabber ID via a server called gristle.org
Jul 08 09:29:50 ---AndrewSavory has changed the topic to: <patrickhlauke>i'm at home in my undies at the moment, so it wouldn't be a pretty sight ;)
Jul 08 09:29:57 <patrickhlauke>hehe
Jul 08 09:30:09 ---AndrewSavory has changed the topic to: Chat About IWMW
Jul 08 09:30:26 <AndrewSavory>note to the operator: you should set topic lock ;-)
Jul 08 09:30:48 <patrickhlauke>anybody else managed to get jabber-ing?
Jul 08 09:31:33 <AndrewSavory>i have had jabber open, but couldn't connect to the rooms mentioned
Jul 08 09:31:47 <AndrewSavory>i prefer irc for this sort of thing though, so i didn't try too hard ;)
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Jul 08 09:32:25 <patrickhlauke>i'm not particularly a fan of irc, but hey...you do what you can
Jul 08 09:32:33 <patrickhlauke>morning jeremy
Jul 08 09:32:42 <JeremySpellerUCL>Hi
Jul 08 09:32:46 <AndrewSavory>mornin Jeremy
Jul 08 09:32:58 <AndrewSavory>right, back in a mo - my ssh tunnel app has gone nuts
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Jul 08 09:33:21 <JeremySpellerUCL>Had to come home last night unfortunately - hope last morning is good
Jul 08 09:33:54 <patrickhlauke>was the journey home ok?
Jul 08 09:34:03 <patrickhlauke>or is it chaotic to travel towards the capital?
Jul 08 09:34:30 <JeremySpellerUCL>not too bad ta - it's OK as long as you don't want to go near King's Cross
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Jul 08 09:35:09 <AndrewSavory>hmm, this is all very odd. tunnelling out is causing 100% cpu load today :-(
Jul 08 09:35:21 <AndrewSavory>i'm getting nice toasty knees
Jul 08 09:35:38 <patrickhlauke>hehe
Jul 08 09:36:16 <JeremySpellerUCL>whenintel make them nice G6 powerbook chips we'll all have cool knees again!
Jul 08 09:36:34 <patrickhlauke>did anybody use jybe after all in the last two days? i installed the FF plugin, hoping for some action, but not seen it used so far
Jul 08 09:36:35 <AndrewSavory>heh
Jul 08 09:36:40 <MilesB>No jybe
Jul 08 09:36:48 <AndrewSavory>yeah, i installed jybe too, but nothing doing ...
Jul 08 09:36:56 <patrickhlauke>(unless i missed something yesterday morning when i was recuperating from the previous night of alcoholic revels)
Jul 08 09:38:09 <patrickhlauke>quick weird question: has anybody here worked with CC/PP to some extent?
Jul 08 09:38:16 <AndrewSavory>yup
Jul 08 09:38:22 <AndrewSavory>and UAProf
Jul 08 09:38:48 <AndrewSavory>conclusion: they are both quite broken ;-)
Jul 08 09:39:19 <patrickhlauke>i'm thinking of writing a FF extension - just a basic proof of concept - to send CC/PP via headers to allow users to carry their profile with them (through something like FF on a USB stick or something)
Jul 08 09:39:19 <AndrewSavory>there's an excellent device catalogue (in xml) that's being collaboratively developed, that's worth a look
Jul 08 09:39:35 <AndrewSavory>ah, ok ... quirky, indeed
Jul 08 09:39:46 <patrickhlauke>but all i've seen so far was CC/PP in relation to mobile phones
Jul 08 09:39:54 <AndrewSavory>yeah, when i hear CC/PP i always think mobile devices
Jul 08 09:40:05 <patrickhlauke>and am not sure if my idea is "breaking" the idea behind it
Jul 08 09:40:46 <patrickhlauke>just thinking about the accessibility angle of users being able to set their preferred access options via the extension's setup, plus FF sending its current window size etc
Jul 08 09:41:10 <patrickhlauke>and server then sending the right things for the user, e.g. i'm deaf, so no audio please
Jul 08 09:41:18 <AndrewSavory>not a very cross-browser way of doing it though ...
Jul 08 09:42:01 <AndrewSavory>(not sure how you'd do it in a cross-platform fashion)
Jul 08 09:42:01 <patrickhlauke>well, a one size fits all approach is nice and all for basic content pages, but once you hit multimedia, differentiation like that may actually be beneficial to the user
Jul 08 09:43:09 <patrickhlauke>i mean yes, you can make gateway pages a la "see the video / video with captions / text transcript" but this would be a bit more automatic; user sets their preference, and if possible the server sends them what they need
Jul 08 09:43:27 <patrickhlauke>a bit like accept headers for basic content negotiation
Jul 08 09:43:41 <AndrewSavory>yeah. not sure if CC/PP is designed to deal with that ... possible, i guess
Jul 08 09:43:58 <patrickhlauke>and if a user can carry his/her profile with them on a usb stick, it could be quite slick
Jul 08 09:44:06 <AndrewSavory>it's been a long time since i read the spec ;-)
Jul 08 09:44:13 <patrickhlauke>just thoughts. i know i'm probably looking at it from the wrong angle/technology
Jul 08 09:44:34 <patrickhlauke>i did a bit of reading on it last night, and well it does seem to focus on mobile phones
Jul 08 09:45:01 <patrickhlauke>was chatting to a few accessibility peops in canada recently though, and they seemed intrigued. heck, if i find the time, i'll give it a whirl
Jul 08 09:45:15 <patrickhlauke>shouldn't be too hard an extension to write
Jul 08 09:45:47 <patrickhlauke>got a few under my belt already, from the banal to the reasonably useful https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/authorprofiles.php?id=169
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Jul 08 09:47:40 <JeremySpellerUCL>wouldn't mind a nice FF extension to run ZWiki a la wikalong
Jul 08 09:47:59 <AndrewSavory>or anything other than the horrible wikalong wiki ;)
Jul 08 09:48:24 <JeremySpellerUCL>I rub along with it as I like the sidebar approach
Jul 08 09:49:01 <patrickhlauke>it's trivial to get things to open in a sidebar in FF
Jul 08 09:49:23 <--MilesB has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 09:49:45 <patrickhlauke>but i guess the integration is what counts (not really checked wikalong so i may be talking out of my rear SSH tunnel)
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Jul 08 09:50:37 <JeremySpellerUCL>indeedy - getting the wiki to index to the page in question
Jul 08 09:50:48 <AndrewSavory>simple referer magic, innit?
Jul 08 09:50:52 <AndrewSavory>server-side
Jul 08 09:51:14 <patrickhlauke>jeremy...send me an email about zwiki-FF-sidebar before my memory fails me, and i may have a look
Jul 08 09:51:15 <patrickhlauke>redux@splintered.co.uk
Jul 08 09:52:03 <patrickhlauke>yeah shouldn't be difficult. or in FF itself have the an extension that grabs what the current url in the main content browser is and update the sidebar accordingly. simple enough to do
Jul 08 09:53:17 <AndrewSavory>ok, rebooting before my laptop catches fire
Jul 08 09:53:22 <patrickhlauke>hehe
Jul 08 09:53:42 <JeremySpellerUCL>will do patrick - ta
Jul 08 09:53:50 <patrickhlauke>right, i best get dressed and catch the bus over to the conference centre. be there in about 40 minutes or so
Jul 08 09:54:18 <patrickhlauke>laters...
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Jul 08 09:54:42 <JeremySpellerUCL>bye
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Jul 08 10:42:36 <EmTonkin>hello... how is it going?
Jul 08 10:42:59 <Greg_Tourte>I'm fine, and you?
Jul 08 10:43:30 *EmTonkin has a throat full of gunk
Jul 08 10:43:36 <EmTonkin>but apart from that I'm fine
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Jul 08 11:04:02 <Greg_Tourte>Morning Andrew
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Jul 08 11:04:30 <EmTonkin>morning Andrew
Jul 08 11:04:40 <EmTonkin>not to be hopelessly derivative or anything :P
Jul 08 11:04:47 <Greg_Tourte>hey hey!
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Jul 08 11:08:15 <Adrian_Tribe>Is it just me, or is this all a bit "old hat"?
Jul 08 11:08:18 <JonWarbrick>Morning all - let's see if my battery will last a whole morning...
Jul 08 11:08:20 <AndrewSavory>morning ;-)
Jul 08 11:08:42 <AndrewSavory>Adrian_Tribe: yes, indeed. all feels quite familiar ...
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Jul 08 11:11:12 <Adrian_Tribe>hi Tim
Jul 08 11:11:33 *EmTonkin is, er, personing the desk at the moment. So do feel free to provide running commentary for those of us who are disadvantaged on the presence front :P
Jul 08 11:11:34 <TimM>mornign adrian
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Jul 08 11:11:54 <TimM>southwest reporting now
Jul 08 11:11:59 <TimM>quality control
Jul 08 11:12:18 <TimM>missed first issue
Jul 08 11:12:25 <TimM>final one choosing the right cms
Jul 08 11:12:37 <JonWarbrick>1st was 'Resources'
Jul 08 11:12:56 <TimM>didn't discuss them further because of london bombs
Jul 08 11:13:01 <JonWarbrick>Lots of caallanges, no answers
Jul 08 11:13:03 <EmTonkin>ah.
Jul 08 11:13:18 <TimM>now midlands group
Jul 08 11:13:32 <TimM>cultural and ownership
Jul 08 11:13:41 <TimM>skills and branding
Jul 08 11:13:47 <TimM>second technical limitations
Jul 08 11:13:54 <TimM>3rd support and training
Jul 08 11:14:07 <TimM>think challenge is procedures
Jul 08 11:14:09 <AndrewSavory>next time technology is used, there should be a webcam streaming video ...
Jul 08 11:14:14 <EmTonkin>yeah
Jul 08 11:14:15 <TimM>technology and skills ok
Jul 08 11:14:15 <EmTonkin>absolutely
Jul 08 11:14:25 <JonWarbrick>also comment about the danger of deskiling existing users
Jul 08 11:14:28 <EmTonkin>and we could record it for posterity and wrap it up in METS or something.
Jul 08 11:14:29 <Adrian_Tribe>Then we can all stay at home!
Jul 08 11:14:33 <TimM>important to identify requirements
Jul 08 11:14:33 <AndrewSavory>i noticed that yesterday morning trying to follow things from the accommodation
Jul 08 11:14:57 <TimM>next wales ireland and scotland
Jul 08 11:14:58 <Greg_Tourte>we'll try to set that up if possible
Jul 08 11:15:09 <TimM>feels like the eurovision a bit :)
Jul 08 11:15:12 <EmTonkin>hehe
Jul 08 11:15:21 <Adrian_Tribe>Who gets nil points?!
Jul 08 11:15:28 <TimM>1st do you need a cms at all?
Jul 08 11:15:32 <AndrewSavory>we did it at an Apache meet last year, but in reverse - a transatlantic iSight video hookup
Jul 08 11:15:45 <JonWarbrick>radical 1st question!
Jul 08 11:15:49 <TimM>need to gather proper requirements
Jul 08 11:16:00 <TimM>think about scope
Jul 08 11:16:07 <TimM>2nd management buy in
Jul 08 11:16:08 <EmTonkin>Angleterre: 0 points...
Jul 08 11:16:24 <TimM>listen to management
Jul 08 11:16:25 <EmTonkin>ah, requirements analysis
Jul 08 11:16:27 <TimM>identify benefits
Jul 08 11:16:35 <TimM>communicate in plain language
Jul 08 11:16:58 <TimM>get support from other constituencies
Jul 08 11:17:21 <TimM>find arguments like security or legal requirements
Jul 08 11:17:30 <TimM>final selection
Jul 08 11:17:35 <TimM>buy or build
Jul 08 11:17:37 <AndrewSavory>http://www.lnreview.co.uk/news/005167.php : "And we're going to go about our lives. We're going to take care of the lives you ruined. And then we're going to work. And we're going down the pub."
Jul 08 11:17:46 <TimM>requirements again
Jul 08 11:17:52 <TimM>talk to others
Jul 08 11:17:53 <Adrian_Tribe>the legal scare tactics don't seem to work very well at Birkbeck :-(
Jul 08 11:17:56 <TimM>hidden costs
Jul 08 11:18:17 <JonWarbrick>Birkbeck: why/how not?
Jul 08 11:18:45 <EmTonkin>AndrewSavory: a friend of mine who works in central london blogged last night: "Fuck you extremist islam. I'm going home. Even if I have to walk".
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Jul 08 11:18:48 <Adrian_Tribe>Because even some of the senior managers seem to think it doesn't apply to us...
Jul 08 11:18:54 <TimM>doesn't the accessibility thing work as an argument?
Jul 08 11:19:06 <Adrian_Tribe>Can do...
Jul 08 11:19:08 <TimM>also marketing can be good allies
Jul 08 11:19:28 <TimM>management do seem to like bums on seats
Jul 08 11:19:39 <TimM>my comments by the way for those not in the room
Jul 08 11:19:40 <EmTonkin>Greg_Tourte: Another thing to add to the irc for next year. A de-profanity filter for my own sake.
Jul 08 11:19:50 <Adrian_Tribe>I wouls second hat Greg
Jul 08 11:20:04 <TimM>south east now
Jul 08 11:20:06 <Adrian_Tribe>or even, "I would second that Greg"
Jul 08 11:20:16 <TimM>pp presentation
Jul 08 11:20:27 <JonWarbrick>SE notes on Wikalong
Jul 08 11:20:40 <JonWarbrick>selling to users
Jul 08 11:20:41 <TimM>seelingn to users
Jul 08 11:20:45 <EmTonkin>'could do with sophisticated file locking'.
Jul 08 11:20:46 <Greg_Tourte>does that mean filtering out any mentions of Brian as well?
Jul 08 11:20:49 <AndrewSavory>weird mac os aqua-style slide templates ...
Jul 08 11:20:53 <TimM>feel free to cary on jon
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Jul 08 11:21:11 <JonWarbrick>OK
Jul 08 11:21:14 <Adrian_Tribe>:-)
Jul 08 11:21:18 <EmTonkin>oh yes. That's a small point: if anyone has made comments they would in retrospect prefer not to remain in the log, could they let me know?
Jul 08 11:21:42 <Adrian_Tribe>You think people will remember what they've said?!!
Jul 08 11:21:44 <EmTonkin>hehe
Jul 08 11:21:53 <AndrewSavory>where will the logs be published?
Jul 08 11:21:55 <EmTonkin>no, I think they can email me and ask for the log, really?
Jul 08 11:22:17 <JonWarbrick>se 2: selling to mgmt
Jul 08 11:22:19 <EmTonkin>I dunno really. Next time I will have to get everyone to register on a mailing list or something equally ridiculous and administratively heavy
Jul 08 11:22:37 <TimM>requirements again
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Jul 08 11:23:01 <JonWarbrick>threten/scare them
Jul 08 11:23:02 <AndrewSavory>i think the biggest thing wrt CMSes is that someone central should be maintaining research on 'em, it'd save a lot of time for individual institutions
Jul 08 11:23:03 <TimM>why does it always have to be a battle
Jul 08 11:23:13 <TimM>can't we just argue and convince them?
Jul 08 11:23:22 <JonWarbrick>use extarnal consultant cos mgmt believe them
Jul 08 11:23:34 <AndrewSavory>i'm tame :-)
Jul 08 11:23:36 <EmTonkin>but tame external consultant first :P
Jul 08 11:23:39 <JonWarbrick>... but get a tanm one
Jul 08 11:23:42 <Adrian_Tribe>I would second that!
Jul 08 11:23:44 <EmTonkin>argh. Great minds think alike.
Jul 08 11:23:53 <EmTonkin>she says modestly.
Jul 08 11:23:58 <JonWarbrick>tell mgmt that it improves branding, but don't tell users
Jul 08 11:24:23 <TimM>we found that users do not mind that much if it helps them in other ways
Jul 08 11:24:24 <JonWarbrick>se 3 what to use?
Jul 08 11:24:32 <JonWarbrick>how to find options
Jul 08 11:24:43 <JonWarbrick>compile top 10 questions for suppliers
Jul 08 11:24:50 <AndrewSavory>bless you
Jul 08 11:25:05 <JonWarbrick>look at public sector experience
Jul 08 11:25:09 <Adrian_Tribe>An important point would be "Don't automatically believe everything the supplier says about their product and what it can do", sadly.
Jul 08 11:25:39 <EmTonkin>now if this were a real IRC client I'd /ctcp #channel that sneeze.
Jul 08 11:26:10 <EmTonkin>a little cynicism is good for the soul when it comes to suppliers.
Jul 08 11:26:20 <JonWarbrick>se pannel point: need central resource
Jul 08 11:26:22 <Adrian_Tribe>yes!
Jul 08 11:26:29 <JonWarbrick>who's reporting now - lost track
Jul 08 11:26:51 <JonWarbrick>ness to understand scope
Jul 08 11:26:55 <TimM>you still are jon
Jul 08 11:27:02 <JonWarbrick>need to understand technology and ned
Jul 08 11:27:10 <JonWarbrick>open source/build
Jul 08 11:27:16 <JonWarbrick>2nd : politics
Jul 08 11:27:23 <JonWarbrick>cat champion
Jul 08 11:27:32 <JonWarbrick>Ugh? GET champion
Jul 08 11:27:43 <JonWarbrick>3rd Implimentation
Jul 08 11:27:52 <JonWarbrick>slow movement, finance, etc
Jul 08 11:28:02 <EmTonkin>cat: champion: no such file or directory
Jul 08 11:28:07 <JonWarbrick>solutions:
Jul 08 11:28:08 <EmTonkin>:P
Jul 08 11:28:08 <Adrian_Tribe>Political issues are the biggest problem, in my experience
Jul 08 11:28:35 <JonWarbrick>... lost the thread here...
Jul 08 11:28:36 <EmTonkin>politics, power, culture...
Jul 08 11:28:51 <TimM>involve people and know thy enemies, I think
Jul 08 11:28:57 <EmTonkin>closely followed by well-meaning lack of understanding
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Jul 08 11:29:40 <EmTonkin>oops, rl chat pause.
Jul 08 11:29:40 <JonWarbrick>Am I the only one for who Wireles connectivity keps dropping out?
Jul 08 11:29:46 <AndrewSavory>Mark Shuttleworth and Canonical Ltd, founders of the popular Ubuntu
Jul 08 11:29:46 <AndrewSavory>Linux-based operating system, have today announced the creation of The
Jul 08 11:29:46 <AndrewSavory>Ubuntu Foundation with an initial funding commitment of US$10m.
Jul 08 11:30:07 <Greg_Tourte>JonWarbrick: which SSID aare you using?
Jul 08 11:30:12 <TimM>mine did every now and then yesterday
Jul 08 11:30:33 <JonWarbrick>conference atm, university yestarday did same thing
Jul 08 11:31:05 <JonWarbrick>Pannel session starting - doubt I can log it in realtime
Jul 08 11:31:12 <Greg_Tourte>hmm so no it shouldn't drop unless they changed something to the system...
Jul 08 11:32:51 <JonWarbrick>"don't say Portal to suppliers"!
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Jul 08 11:34:06 <EmTonkin>why isn't one supposed to say portal to suppliers?...
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Jul 08 11:34:36 <EmTonkin>JonWarbrick: Which of the wifi points are you on?
Jul 08 11:34:50 <EmTonkin>I've been using conference and it seems rock-solid today
Jul 08 11:34:51 <JonWarbrick>conference
Jul 08 11:35:29 <JonWarbrick>Hm, probably my PC somewhere, sorry about all the leave/join events
Jul 08 11:37:57 <EmTonkin>marieke just received the instructions as to how to deal with those four bottles of whisky under the desk
Jul 08 11:38:36 <EmTonkin>we should insist that next year, Brian gets a fifth bottle as some form of employee bonus
Jul 08 11:38:43 <--JonWarbrick has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 11:38:51 <Greg_Tourte>well I could have told her that myself: "give them to me" is my suggestion!
Jul 08 11:38:58 <AndrewSavory>i'll suggest it if you split it with me ;-)
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Jul 08 11:39:11 <Greg_Tourte>no problem Andrew
Jul 08 11:39:57 <AndrewSavory>is a cms less skill, or -different- skills?
Jul 08 11:40:32 <EmTonkin>Greg_Tourte: you don't want them that hard, it's only jameson and bell's
Jul 08 11:40:36 <EmTonkin>:)
Jul 08 11:40:54 <EmTonkin>AndrewSavory: Different skills
Jul 08 11:40:56 <AndrewSavory>better than the "Strathclyde House Whisky" we had a few years back ;-)
Jul 08 11:41:03 <TimM>i find that there are lots of users who will only edit once in a while
Jul 08 11:41:06 <EmTonkin>imnsho
Jul 08 11:41:23 <TimM>it's very difficult to give them any skills as they will always lack practice
Jul 08 11:41:46 <AndrewSavory>so making editing incredibly simple, and everything else optional extra ...
Jul 08 11:42:07 <TimM>i find a problem is that within the organisation ther eis often a lack of understanding that there are skill beyond html involved in web sites
Jul 08 11:42:19 <--JonWarbrick has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 11:42:43 <TimM>they will still need to know how to write etc
Jul 08 11:42:49 <EmTonkin>"Writing for the Web" and so forth
Jul 08 11:42:52 <TimM>who takes care of labelling and navigations?
Jul 08 11:42:57 <TimM>what about usability?
Jul 08 11:43:06 <EmTonkin>and usability and design and overall image
Jul 08 11:43:08 <EmTonkin>and consistency...
Jul 08 11:43:14 <TimM>exactly
Jul 08 11:43:25 <TimM>tho a cms can help with some of the consistency
Jul 08 11:43:29 <AndrewSavory>labeling and navigation can be dealt with 'elsewhere'
Jul 08 11:43:30 <EmTonkin>the great intangibles.
Jul 08 11:43:41 <TimM>:)
Jul 08 11:44:36 <TimM>i guess the first hurdle is to get the means to do something
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Jul 08 11:45:22 <EmTonkin>TimM: sort of agile development-style better anything than nothing?
Jul 08 11:45:42 <AndrewSavory>the free open source solutions can help there - they may not be perfect, but they can be deployed cheaply as testbeds to find out what you -really- need
Jul 08 11:45:57 <TimM>lol well only within reason. I meant more about what kinds of problems people focus on
Jul 08 11:46:23 <TimM>am amazed that people should find it surprising that management will respond to arguments to do with overall objectives
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Jul 08 11:46:32 <AndrewSavory>http://cocoondev.org/daisy/index.html btw ... it's the hot new kid on the open source cms block ;-)
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Jul 08 11:47:00 <Randy>but you've just suggested that you should only use it until you are ready to buy a real cms
Jul 08 11:47:09 <EmTonkin>design gives me deja vu
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Jul 08 11:47:46 <AndrewSavory>Randy: nah, start using it before you're ready to buy ... you might find you don't need to buy ...
Jul 08 11:47:49 <TimM>erm Andrew where else would labelling and navigation be dealt with??
Jul 08 11:48:25 <--JonWarbrick has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 11:48:27 <AndrewSavory>well - depends on the complexity of the site, but you could potentially have one person managing nav for all the editors
Jul 08 11:48:37 <--chrisL has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 11:48:42 <AndrewSavory>not sure how well it would work but it'd be interesting to try
Jul 08 11:48:50 <TimM>i agree but it's very labour intensive
Jul 08 11:48:59 <AndrewSavory>would work particularly well for those that want to just edit text every now and then
Jul 08 11:49:08 <TimM>you're back with the web team taking on contents issues
Jul 08 11:49:33 <TimM>it's fine with me but I think we may have moved towards wanting nothing to do with content
Jul 08 11:49:40 <AndrewSavory>should they not have some oversight of the structure of the site? (not necessarily content)
Jul 08 11:50:00 <TimM>but they will need advice in my experience
Jul 08 11:50:12 <TimM>and they will not have the skills to do it themselves
Jul 08 11:50:31 <AndrewSavory>hmm, but where it's point-n-click and wysiwyg editing ...
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Jul 08 11:50:50 <TimM>still the navigation and labelling problem
Jul 08 11:50:57 <TimM>and the writing for the web
Jul 08 11:52:04 <AndrewSavory>hell, i'm -writing- one of the open source ones ;-) (in answer to his question on stage)
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Jul 08 11:52:44 <EmTonkin>one of the open source whats?
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Jul 08 11:52:50 <AndrewSavory>CMS
Jul 08 11:53:00 <AndrewSavory>we have a stripped down cms toolkit
Jul 08 11:53:01 <MilesB>Hey there
Jul 08 11:53:07 <AndrewSavory>and we play with Apache Lenya now and then
Jul 08 11:53:07 <MilesB>Anyquestions?
Jul 08 11:53:17 <AndrewSavory>http://daisy.luminas.co.uk/daisy/ if you want to see a live copy of daisy running
Jul 08 11:53:28 <--owen has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 11:53:36 <AndrewSavory>(rather ugly default skin)
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Jul 08 11:54:03 <Jon>a co-worker of mine talks about daisy a lot
Jul 08 11:54:11 <EmTonkin>it's just a skin :P
Jul 08 11:54:11 <AndrewSavory>hi patrickhlauke ... are you dressed now? ;-)
Jul 08 11:54:11 <Jon>I've found it's got a pretty opaque front page
Jul 08 11:54:24 <AndrewSavory>Jon: yes, it does by default
Jul 08 11:54:26 <patrickhlauke>look to your right andrew and judge for yourself :)
Jul 08 11:54:41 <AndrewSavory>phew ;)
Jul 08 11:55:19 <MilesB>Is there anything from your irc that I can ask or tell the panel?
Jul 08 11:55:22 <EmTonkin>CMSs do tend to make a few assumptions about your website structure.
Jul 08 11:55:34 <AndrewSavory>Jon: the latest milestone should make it easier to (a) make it look better and (b) provide a cleaner front page
Jul 08 11:56:03 <AndrewSavory>EmTonkin: daisy is a non-hierarchical repository, so you can arbitrarily group collections of documents into any structure you want ...
Jul 08 11:56:21 *EmTonkin wants to play with it
Jul 08 11:56:22 <patrickhlauke>joining in late...url for daisy?
Jul 08 11:56:28 <AndrewSavory>http://daisy.luminas.co.uk/daisy/
Jul 08 11:56:38 -->CGI553 (c2421667@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 08 11:56:41 <AndrewSavory>(for live demo)
Jul 08 11:56:49 <AndrewSavory>http://cocoondev.org/daisy/index.html for the site
Jul 08 11:57:17 <EmTonkin>Mind you I'm not being derogatory about daisy as such. That observation was merely an observation.
Jul 08 11:57:44 <AndrewSavory>if you register for the test site, i can make you an administrator
Jul 08 11:57:50 <AndrewSavory>so you can try out the ACLs etc
Jul 08 11:57:52 <EmTonkin>it is probably truer to say that a lot of people who use CMSs make the assumptions in question.
Jul 08 11:58:07 <AndrewSavory>EmTonkin: indeed
Jul 08 11:58:13 <Jon>AndrewSavory: oh sorry, what I meant was, the homepage for the daisy product was opaque in explaining it to me - I find that quite a lot of apache stuff is like that
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Jul 08 11:58:29 <AndrewSavory>Jon: scandalous! surely not! :-)
Jul 08 11:58:36 <AndrewSavory>(yup, very common apache problem)
Jul 08 11:58:38 <patrickhlauke>andrew: user redux
Jul 08 11:58:46 <Jon>;)
Jul 08 11:59:05 *EmTonkin tries to figure out how to register for the test site
Jul 08 11:59:31 <AndrewSavory>the daisy guys are far better explaining 1-1 than thru their website. they did a good presentation: http://cocoondev.org/daisy/162
Jul 08 11:59:39 <patrickhlauke>can't get to my webbased email to activate the account...gah
Jul 08 11:59:53 <AndrewSavory>EmTonkin: drop-down from the user menu...
Jul 08 12:00:04 <patrickhlauke>you want some sexy graphic design there for your daisy test site
Jul 08 12:00:16 <patrickhlauke>can put my zengarden hat on if you want ;)
Jul 08 12:00:20 <Jon>AndrewSavory: I shall make a note of that, thanks
Jul 08 12:00:26 *EmTonkin slaps the mystery meat navigation :P
Jul 08 12:00:27 <AndrewSavory>yeah ... we were waiting for Daisy 1.3M3 (released today), before improving the look n feel
Jul 08 12:00:29 <CGI553>where can I find the blog for iwmw?
Jul 08 12:00:34 <AndrewSavory>patrickhlauke: yes please ;-)
Jul 08 12:00:52 <DavidCupit>Is cocoondev a community or just a host for daisy?
Jul 08 12:00:52 <Jon>hm, whats the plan for this IRC stuff post-event?
Jul 08 12:00:57 <patrickhlauke>just send me an email andrew...my memory is always flaky
Jul 08 12:01:07 <AndrewSavory>http://www.meanboyfriend.com/overdue_ideas/ (iwmw blog)
Jul 08 12:01:44 <EmTonkin>Jon: Brian usually takes the logs from whatever chat occurs, and uses them in a paper or two in an insightful manner.
Jul 08 12:01:48 <AndrewSavory>cocoondev is a host for many cocoon-based applications (xreporter, daisy, etc). there's a community for daisy: http://cocoondev.org/daisy/45.html
Jul 08 12:01:49 <EmTonkin>from experience, that is.
Jul 08 12:01:58 <AndrewSavory>patrickhlauke: k ta
Jul 08 12:02:00 <CGI553>excellent, thanks Andrew!
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Jul 08 12:02:42 <Jon>EmTonkin: ah interesting
Jul 08 12:02:46 <EmTonkin>in this case I wonder if I shouldn't provide participants with a little while in order to request removal from logs of things that they secretly wish they hadn't said.
Jul 08 12:02:51 <patrickhlauke>http://www.cms-list.org/ doesn't seem to do zilch
Jul 08 12:03:02 <patrickhlauke>or am i missing a cool IE only navigation
Jul 08 12:03:03 <AndrewSavory>patrickhlauke: you're approved and administrator
Jul 08 12:03:14 <EmTonkin>Jon: Brian is pretty good at paper creation in that sense.
Jul 08 12:03:25 <AndrewSavory>Em: you're approved and administrator
Jul 08 12:03:28 <EmTonkin>good user of resources, like.
Jul 08 12:03:34 <Jon>EmTonkin: are there any other established IRC channels for the profession?
Jul 08 12:03:42 <patrickhlauke>andrew and others here on this side...mind if i make a few photos for brian / milesB's ariadne article?
Jul 08 12:04:00 <AndrewSavory>Jon: we could set one up on irc.freenode.net, lots of projects and communities over there
Jul 08 12:04:06 <EmTonkin>not afaik. I was just trying to sell Brian on the idea of having a permanent one, as Brian is trying to sell the idea of having a wiki community for the profession.
Jul 08 12:04:15 <AndrewSavory>patrickhlauke: feel free ... especially if you flickr them!
Jul 08 12:04:30 <AndrewSavory>wiki + irc is a good combo
Jul 08 12:04:41 <EmTonkin>but it might take a certain adjustment period
Jul 08 12:04:47 <TimM>nope no cool navigation just a useless page (cms-list that is)
Jul 08 12:05:09 <Jon>AndrewSavory: I'm not sure if there would be a demand but it would certainly be interesting.
Jul 08 12:05:28 <Jon>EmTonkin: hehe
Jul 08 12:05:33 <EmTonkin>Finally an excuse to play with eggdrops again.
Jul 08 12:05:37 <EmTonkin>wahey
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Jul 08 12:05:59 <patrickhlauke>sorry for noisy analogue camera noises...
Jul 08 12:06:02 <TimM>try http://archivist.incutio.com/viewlist/cms-list
Jul 08 12:06:07 <AndrewSavory>patrickhlauke: quaint ;-)
Jul 08 12:06:26 <patrickhlauke>gives good results though
Jul 08 12:06:36 <Jon>AndrewSavory: ok, any suggestions for a name?
Jul 08 12:06:44 <AndrewSavory>web-support ?
Jul 08 12:06:51 <EmTonkin>heh. One of my friends bought an obsecure german digital camera that has been painstakingly engineered to provide a sound not dissimilar to an ancient SLR
Jul 08 12:07:01 <AndrewSavory>heheh
Jul 08 12:07:04 <EmTonkin>candidate for speakerectomy
Jul 08 12:07:22 <patrickhlauke>http://redux.deviantart.com/gallery and http://www.flickr.com/photos/redux
Jul 08 12:07:46 <EmTonkin>oops. Whisky bottles apparently arriving in about 10 minutes.
Jul 08 12:07:46 <AndrewSavory>Jon: if you want to point Helen at http://daisy.luminas.co.uk/daisy/ I'd be happy to offer help etc
Jul 08 12:07:49 <patrickhlauke>obscure camera: does it have a floppy drive?
Jul 08 12:09:05 <EmTonkin>nope. Basically it was the modern analogue of that calculator that Dirk Gently buys in the long dark teatime of the soul.
Jul 08 12:09:09 <patrickhlauke>surely all you need is microsoft project...
Jul 08 12:09:34 <patrickhlauke>heh...excellent em
Jul 08 12:09:44 <EmTonkin>Glue technology had not progressed to the point etc.
Jul 08 12:10:24 <EmTonkin>images and photos up to 1 megapixel, but it played a mean game of tetris as I recall.
Jul 08 12:10:36 <--annemc has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
Jul 08 12:10:49 <Jon>AndrewSavory: ok I've registered #web-support on freenode
Jul 08 12:11:00 <AndrewSavory>Jon: cool
Jul 08 12:11:15 <patrickhlauke>send an email to the web support list as well, if you haven't already done so
Jul 08 12:11:18 <EmTonkin>what's freenode's opinion about bots?
Jul 08 12:11:19 <--MilesB has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
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Jul 08 12:11:21 <Jon>hm I can't page up on this mac, not sure which random key combination to press but, who is helen sorry? :)
Jul 08 12:11:33 *EmTonkin heads off to check out the aup
Jul 08 12:11:34 <--TimM has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
Jul 08 12:11:54 <Greg_Tourte>btw patrickhlauke : nice photos!
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Jul 08 12:12:21 <patrickhlauke>ta greg
Jul 08 12:12:30 <patrickhlauke>prince2 of persia...
Jul 08 12:12:32 <AndrewSavory>EmTonkin: freenode is ok about bots as long as they behave
Jul 08 12:12:57 <AndrewSavory>Jon: ah, you're not the jon i thought you were, oops ;-)
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Jul 08 12:13:08 <Jon>AndrewSavory: np
Jul 08 12:13:17 <AndrewSavory>thought you were mr warbrick from cambridge ;-)
Jul 08 12:13:18 <EmTonkin>are you implying I code naughty bots??? :P
Jul 08 12:13:38 <AndrewSavory>EmTonkin: i wouldn't dream of implying that, but if you infer that .... guilty conscience? ;-)
Jul 08 12:13:59 <EmTonkin>moi?
Jul 08 12:14:04 *EmTonkin looks righteously outraged
Jul 08 12:14:09 <Randy>Prince2 needs full institutional support - it doesn't work in isolation
Jul 08 12:14:24 <EmTonkin>an effect I may add which is completely lost on the 0 people actually present in this meatspace.
Jul 08 12:14:36 <Randy>hard to implement in some institutions
Jul 08 12:14:41 <AndrewSavory>Prince2 is very very heavy, too ... i suspect slimmed-down version more suitable in most situations
Jul 08 12:14:53 <Jon>meatspace - I like that term
Jul 08 12:15:03 <EmTonkin>v. old IRC type term.
Jul 08 12:15:18 <patrickhlauke>next IWMW we need crawling text behind the speakers fed straight from the irc session
Jul 08 12:15:21 <Randy>Prince2 practitioner is necessary - agreed
Jul 08 12:15:26 <EmTonkin>I think Wired magazine probably threw it away as being insufficiently cool and went for a japanese expression instead.
Jul 08 12:16:13 <patrickhlauke>i threw away wired about 5 years ago....after the .com bubble burst it just became obsolete
Jul 08 12:16:16 <EmTonkin>patrickhlauke: Agreed.
Jul 08 12:16:27 <EmTonkin>patrickhlauke: also agree there
Jul 08 12:16:46 <EmTonkin>we still get wired for some reason, it's good if you want SUV adverts and so forth.
Jul 08 12:16:59 <--TimM has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
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Jul 08 12:17:04 <EmTonkin>and to learn where to order binary-display digital watches and so forth.
Jul 08 12:17:07 <patrickhlauke>the design is still nice in wired, but nothing more
Jul 08 12:17:14 ---CGI929 is now known as TimM
Jul 08 12:17:30 <patrickhlauke>i remember the good old days of articles on extropians and such...and the feel you got that it's all just around the corner
Jul 08 12:17:35 <EmTonkin>and I think the thrill of reading about other people who made too much money with dot coms wore off.
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Jul 08 12:17:58 <EmTonkin>yeah. It does seem to have retreated since then.
Jul 08 12:18:26 <patrickhlauke>incidentally, an entertaining book i read last week "down and out in the magic kingdom" by cory doctorow
Jul 08 12:18:32 <patrickhlauke>recaptures that old wired feel
Jul 08 12:19:13 <EmTonkin>I'll pick that one up then
Jul 08 12:19:30 <--TimM has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 12:19:38 <patrickhlauke>derek's talk was indeed superb
Jul 08 12:19:44 <EmTonkin>I've got a bit disillusioned with print media surrounding the net at the moment...
Jul 08 12:20:02 <patrickhlauke>yeah well it's about 2-3 years behind the times
Jul 08 12:20:04 <EmTonkin>it seems to go between the Painfully Obvious, the Wannabe, and the Hopelessly Pretentious.
Jul 08 12:20:28 <patrickhlauke>the doctorw book is a scifi novel...but very entertaining concepts and not too far out lasers and stuff
Jul 08 12:20:32 *EmTonkin nods
Jul 08 12:20:37 <EmTonkin>I just looked at the page.
Jul 08 12:20:38 <AndrewSavory>patrickhlauke: cory doctorow v good, now read that tho
Jul 08 12:20:56 <EmTonkin>and I also have a memory of reading various other stuff of the same author...
Jul 08 12:21:20 <EmTonkin>good grief. Someone translated it into pig latin.
Jul 08 12:21:58 <EmTonkin>anyone won the whisky yet?
Jul 08 12:22:12 <AndrewSavory>nope .. brian summing up
Jul 08 12:22:30 <EmTonkin>aha.
Jul 08 12:22:35 <EmTonkin>and what does the sum equal?
Jul 08 12:22:44 <EmTonkin>pi? 42? e?
Jul 08 12:22:44 <patrickhlauke>don't say 42
Jul 08 12:22:49 <EmTonkin>too late.
Jul 08 12:22:49 <AndrewSavory>i think that i missed the best talk? ;-)
Jul 08 12:22:50 <patrickhlauke>dammit
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Jul 08 12:23:14 <EmTonkin>hoopy :P
Jul 08 12:23:43 <patrickhlauke>i'll make a poster next year...sticky back plastic and crayons at the ready
Jul 08 12:23:53 -->CGI929 (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 08 12:23:55 <EmTonkin>why? Are there major rewards?
Jul 08 12:24:00 ---CGI929 is now known as TimM
Jul 08 12:24:15 <patrickhlauke>seems like it
Jul 08 12:24:20 <patrickhlauke>not sure
Jul 08 12:24:37 <EmTonkin>I could kidnap marieke's toddlers and force them to produce something of dubious artistic merit.
Jul 08 12:25:09 <EmTonkin>more likely to succeed than doing it myself, anyway.
Jul 08 12:25:15 <AndrewSavory>where'd sebastian go?
Jul 08 12:25:27 -->CGI929 (8258d132@rox-F526CC2.bath.ac.uk) has joined #iwmw-2005
Jul 08 12:25:31 <patrickhlauke>to check out who zeldman is? :-p
Jul 08 12:25:32 <--TimM has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
Jul 08 12:25:35 <MilesB>Last seen hitting beeping laptop with fire axe
Jul 08 12:25:36 <AndrewSavory>heh
Jul 08 12:25:39 ---CGI929 is now known as Timm
Jul 08 12:25:41 <AndrewSavory>rofl
Jul 08 12:25:42 <Randy>Sebastian is off sick
Jul 08 12:25:43 <EmTonkin>sebastian?... was ill, went home, I think
Jul 08 12:25:51 ---Timm is now known as TimM
Jul 08 12:26:03 <AndrewSavory>ill = hungover, or ill? ;-)
Jul 08 12:26:08 <Randy>ill
Jul 08 12:26:14 <EmTonkin>must've been that fish stuff with the suckers still attached. I did say.
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Jul 08 12:26:29 <MilesB>yuk
Jul 08 12:26:31 <EmTonkin>I said, never eat anything that still has that strong a grip.
Jul 08 12:26:37 <MilesB>roflo
Jul 08 12:26:38 <patrickhlauke>hmm. we went for african last night
Jul 08 12:26:45 <patrickhlauke>very exotic
Jul 08 12:26:57 <patrickhlauke>you jam the signal
Jul 08 12:27:01 <AndrewSavory>Brian in "thank you manchester" shocker
Jul 08 12:27:09 <MilesB>good - a jam reference
Jul 08 12:27:37 <--michaelw has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 12:28:10 <DavidCupit>of cousre the wireless was provided by it services at manchester not manchester computing.
Jul 08 12:28:38 *Jon wonders which combination of three meta-keys and various arrow-things on an ibook will give me a page-up
Jul 08 12:28:49 <DavidCupit>we have rebranded and our new website was up in 24 hrs thanks to the CMS
Jul 08 12:28:52 <AndrewSavory>fn-uparrow
Jul 08 12:29:03 <patrickhlauke>brian passing the baton to marieke officially now
Jul 08 12:29:17 <Jon>ah , and shift-fn-uparrow seems to pass it through to the program behind the terminal
Jul 08 12:29:38 <patrickhlauke>is he still going to stick around as a mascot?
Jul 08 12:29:46 <AndrewSavory>hope so
Jul 08 12:30:10 ---MilesB is now known as noname
Jul 08 12:30:16 <patrickhlauke>web-focus is now known as web-blur
Jul 08 12:30:19 <patrickhlauke>heh
Jul 08 12:30:50 <EmTonkin>oh good grief
Jul 08 12:31:48 <EmTonkin>hey, what team are you on? Web blur!
Jul 08 12:31:59 <patrickhlauke>my assistant...excellent
Jul 08 12:32:05 <Randy>Sebastian wants to know if his poster won the whisky because it was the only one.
Jul 08 12:32:19 <noname>There was one other
Jul 08 12:32:24 <patrickhlauke>leveraging the synergies of whiskey
Jul 08 12:32:28 <Jon>Randy: I did notice there was a laminated sign with my name on it next to a gap in the posters.. took that when Brian was not looking
Jul 08 12:33:33 <noname>What about thanking Brian?
Jul 08 12:33:39 <patrickhlauke>indeed
Jul 08 12:33:46 <patrickhlauke>standing ovations i'd say
Jul 08 12:33:48 <EmTonkin>someone thank Brian.
Jul 08 12:33:58 <EmTonkin>Come on. Mexican wave.
Jul 08 12:34:21 <noname>Bath again
Jul 08 12:34:30 <EmTonkin>Bath again what?
Jul 08 12:34:39 <noname>Been to bath
Jul 08 12:34:44 <EmTonkin>er...
Jul 08 12:34:46 <patrickhlauke>next venue
Jul 08 12:34:53 <EmTonkin>oh I see.
Jul 08 12:34:58 <patrickhlauke>marieke playing cheesy video presentation for it
Jul 08 12:35:01 <EmTonkin>as in Brian announced that next year it will again be in bath.
Jul 08 12:35:08 <EmTonkin>But we promise to slaughter catering services first.
Jul 08 12:35:20 <noname>Horrible music in the background!
Jul 08 12:35:44 <EmTonkin>marieke did not I think much enjoy producing the cheesy video presentation as I recall.
Jul 08 12:35:51 <--AdrianStevenson has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
Jul 08 12:36:02 <EmTonkin>but that might just be the sum total of listening to several weeks of exasperated 'oh well' type sounds.
Jul 08 12:36:14 <noname>Bye everyone
Jul 08 12:36:14 <--Randy has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 12:36:15 <AndrewSavory>ciao everyone!
Jul 08 12:36:16 <--TimM has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
Jul 08 12:36:24 <--noname has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 12:36:26 <patrickhlauke>ta ta folks
Jul 08 12:36:30 <--patrickhlauke has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC 0.5.7 (2005/06/19))
Jul 08 12:36:31 <EmTonkin>cheers guys
Jul 08 12:36:33 <--annemc has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 12:36:33 <--owen has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 12:36:38 <EmTonkin>au revoir :P
Jul 08 12:36:59 <Jon>right, bye bye
Jul 08 12:37:07 <EmTonkin>andrewsavory: I think I owe you for a bottle of mineral water? Or am I nuts?
Jul 08 12:37:16 <Jon>EmTonkin: we've got web-support on freenode if anyone wants to try to keep something going
Jul 08 12:37:21 <EmTonkin>yup
Jul 08 12:37:29 <EmTonkin>will get to that anon.
Jul 08 12:37:51 *Jon runs away
Jul 08 12:37:57 <EmTonkin>right. Phil says it's all over now so I have to stop typing. Cheers.
Jul 08 12:37:58 <--DavidCupit has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
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Jul 08 12:38:04 <Jon>hehe - thanks
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Jul 08 12:44:57 <Greg_Tourte>Jon, I joined #web-support on freenode
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Jul 08 21:30:32 <CGI992>hello
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Jul 09 12:05:35 <Jon>things still running I see
Jul 09 12:05:40 *Jon managed to find somewhere to stay in mancheste
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Jul 08 12:36:02 <EmTonkin>but that might just be the sum total of listening to several weeks of exasperated 'oh well' type sounds.
Jul 08 12:36:14 <noname>Bye everyone
Jul 08 12:36:14 <--Randy has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 12:36:15 <AndrewSavory>ciao everyone!
Jul 08 12:36:16 <--TimM has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
Jul 08 12:36:24 <--noname has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 12:36:26 <patrickhlauke>ta ta folks
Jul 08 12:36:30 <--patrickhlauke has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC 0.5.7 (2005/06/19))
Jul 08 12:36:31 <EmTonkin>cheers guys
Jul 08 12:36:33 <--annemc has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 12:36:33 <--owen has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 12:36:38 <EmTonkin>au revoir :P
Jul 08 12:36:59 <Jon>right, bye bye
Jul 08 12:37:07 <EmTonkin>andrewsavory: I think I owe you for a bottle of mineral water? Or am I nuts?
Jul 08 12:37:16 <Jon>EmTonkin: we've got web-support on freenode if anyone wants to try to keep something going
Jul 08 12:37:21 <EmTonkin>yup
Jul 08 12:37:29 <EmTonkin>will get to that anon.
Jul 08 12:37:51 *Jon runs away
Jul 08 12:37:57 <EmTonkin>right. Phil says it's all over now so I have to stop typing. Cheers.
Jul 08 12:37:58 <--DavidCupit has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
Jul 08 12:38:02 <--EmTonkin has quit (Quit: Aaaaaaaaargh splat)
Jul 08 12:38:04 <Jon>hehe - thanks
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Jul 08 12:44:57 <Greg_Tourte>Jon, I joined #web-support on freenode
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Jul 08 21:30:32 <CGI992>hello
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Jul 09 12:05:35 <Jon>things still running I see
Jul 09 12:05:40 *Jon managed to find somewhere to stay in mancheste
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Jul 08 12:36:26 <patrickhlauke>ta ta folks
Jul 08 12:36:30 <--patrickhlauke has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC 0.5.7 (2005/06/19))
Jul 08 12:36:31 <EmTonkin>cheers guys
Jul 08 12:36:33 <--annemc has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 12:36:33 <--owen has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Jul 08 12:36:38 <EmTonkin>au revoir :P
Jul 08 12:36:59 <Jon>right, bye bye
Jul 08 12:37:07 <EmTonkin>andrewsavory: I think I owe you for a bottle of mineral water? Or am I nuts?
Jul 08 12:37:16 <Jon>EmTonkin: we've got web-support on freenode if anyone wants to try to keep something going
Jul 08 12:37:21 <EmTonkin>yup
Jul 08 12:37:29 <EmTonkin>will get to that anon.
Jul 08 12:37:51 *Jon runs away
Jul 08 12:37:57 <EmTonkin>right. Phil says it's all over now so I have to stop typing. Cheers.
Jul 08 12:37:58 <--DavidCupit has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
Jul 08 12:38:02 <--EmTonkin has quit (Quit: Aaaaaaaaargh splat)
Jul 08 12:38:04 <Jon>hehe - thanks
Jul 08 12:39:26 <--AndrewSavory has quit (Ping timeout)
Jul 08 12:44:57 <Greg_Tourte>Jon, I joined #web-support on freenode
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Jul 08 21:30:32 <CGI992>hello
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Afterwards - 9 July 2005

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Jul 09 12:05:35 <Jon>things still running I see
Jul 09 12:05:40 *Jon managed to find somewhere to stay in mancheste
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