Live blog for today's session.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 7:55:06 AM
First talk is "Web 2.0 - Whatever Happened to Web 1.0?" by David Hyett, Head of Information & Records Management, British Antarctic Survey
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:05:22 AM
This will be the sceptics view of Web 2.0. Joint paper with
David Wattam
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:06:40 AM
David is head of Information Management for the British Antartic Survey- background is in library and information management.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:07:33 AM
WEb 1.0 and Web 2.0 mean different things to different people.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:09:07 AM
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:09:27 AM
Web is now almost unrecognisable from its start in 1990s
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:11:28 AM
Two different focuses: move towards greater interactivity and move towards better usability and accessibility. With these collide?
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:12:29 AM
What's bad with Web 2.0? Things aren't inherently bad, but have risks. e.g. diversion of scarce resources.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:14:40 AM
Is Web 2.0 relevant to core user's needs?
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:15:00 AM
Web 2.0 can be boring & confusing. Can overwhelem users with choice? e.g. twitter, video, streaming, feature creep ...
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:16:10 AM
Blog plugins are an example of feature creep .
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:16:40 AM
SImilarities to dotcom era.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:17:19 AM
Note clear what will be the winner in the various Web 2.0 areas.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:17:51 AM
90% of blogs are boring.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:18:05 AM
As long as the consolidation is not Microsoft
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:18:11 AM
He says 90% of blogs are boring... but "Sturgeon's Law: Ninety percent of everything is crap."
by Mike Nolan at 7/23/2008 8:18:20 AM
How true
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 8:18:47 AM
Over 90% of the books in the library are boring - to me, anyway
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:18:50 AM
does that mean we are boring because we are doing this?
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:18:51 AM
:-)
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:18:59 AM
You don't have to read blogs.
by MikeJones at 7/23/2008 8:19:20 AM
I haven't read that many books in my library to know that
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:19:21 AM
The risks of relying on 3rd parties - example of Amazon's S3 outage over wekend
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:19:28 AM
but was anybody really bothered that they went down?
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:20:11 AM
Bad time to be an Apple mobileme customer ;-)
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 8:20:16 AM
When Rackspace goes down the affect is much worse
by Mike Nolan at 7/23/2008 8:20:23 AM
Doesn't take into account that the process of writing a blog may be more important than the product
by Joe at 7/23/2008 8:21:38 AM
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:21:39 AM
I think there's a few things wrong with google
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 8:21:58 AM
yes, i can't get my pages at the top of the list :)
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:22:32 AM
heh me neither
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 8:22:51 AM
The good things about Web 2.0 - can add value, UGC, integration of data, democratisation, ...
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:23:15 AM
my blog is boring ... I don't care ... I find it useful to document stuff. never discourage a developer to document stuff. :)
by MikeJones at 7/23/2008 8:23:29 AM
Yes, reflectiuve aspects of blogs can be vert important
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:24:00 AM
if 90% of blogs are boring can i suggest he reads the other 10%!
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 8:24:22 AM
Redevelopment of BAS Web site.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:24:22 AM
How is the stream, Andy?
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:24:48 AM
Really should ban talking about Web 2.0 and focus on capabilities - too ambiguous otherwise
by Joe at 7/23/2008 8:24:55 AM
I can't get at it still, Brian
by Sally EH at 7/23/2008 8:25:07 AM
this talk is pretty much like 90% of blogs then? Vanity publishing...
by gnozu at 7/23/2008 8:25:23 AM
Platform problem, SAlly?
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:25:25 AM
@gnozu lol
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 8:25:56 AM
:)
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:26:23 AM
No I have tried on several machines here and none of them can play it.
by Sally EH at 7/23/2008 8:26:45 AM
Stream is working well for me - I'm watching at home in Bristol
by MikeJones at 7/23/2008 8:26:47 AM
Usability is more important than Web 2.0
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:26:49 AM
@brian fine here - slightly fuzzy images of slides - but readable - sound good so far
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 8:26:49 AM
Maybe firewall problem?
by Sally EH at 7/23/2008 8:26:50 AM
Yiou can also view slides on SLideshare
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:27:14 AM
I can see the slides
by Sally EH at 7/23/2008 8:27:48 AM
would be nice to have even just audio live
by Sally EH at 7/23/2008 8:28:07 AM
Penguin of the day..... Now it's getting interesting
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:28:25 AM
I'm just adding the facebook app
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 8:28:37 AM
Was just thinking that an audio stream as well as video might help overcome some of the techie problems
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:28:42 AM
So it's like amihotornot for penguins, right?
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 8:28:53 AM
amicold
ornot
by Sally EH at 7/23/2008 8:29:11 AM
how do you prefer one penguin over another and is there any point?
by Sally EH at 7/23/2008 8:29:36 AM
90% of penguins are boring ;)
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 8:29:53 AM
yes, if you are a penguin I guess...
by Jeremy Harmer at 7/23/2008 8:30:00 AM
:-), Janet
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:30:25 AM
lol i guess there is a point if you spend a lot of time in the Antarctic
by gnozu at 7/23/2008 8:30:32 AM
penguins have a unique pattern on their front
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:30:33 AM
:D
by Sally EH at 7/23/2008 8:30:39 AM
how cool
by Sally EH at 7/23/2008 8:30:44 AM
Someone has just written an app to identify them from video so they can keep track of them
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:31:02 AM
90% better than you did before?
by gnozu at 7/23/2008 8:31:13 AM
"
Why provide your own blog when you can link to external?"
by Mike Nolan at 7/23/2008 8:31:20 AM
u mean if u spend too much time in the antarctic that penguin coolness begins to matter to u?
by Jeremy Harmer at 7/23/2008 8:31:27 AM
cool!
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 8:31:28 AM
I bet penguins have a great social network
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:32:04 AM
@sally Have e-mailed you.
by mikewhyment at 7/23/2008 8:32:43 AM
i guess there's not much else other than penguins, so I'm sure penguin coolness starts to matter
by gnozu at 7/23/2008 8:32:50 AM
Brian just called our blogging trivia
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:34:54 AM
90% of it is trivia
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 8:35:13 AM
How do you find the 10% > searchcube! :)
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 8:35:25 AM
Doh!
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:35:37 AM
Searchcube looks great - what's wrong with visual searching
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 8:36:02 AM
recommendations of others gives a good guide, that may be what comes next
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:36:11 AM
The librarians will tell us what's worthy of readin, perhaps
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:36:38 AM
Alison: I think it's nifty, and I don't see why he says it's so hard to use - it's just another way of thinking about search (complementary rather than replacement)
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 8:36:49 AM
For me Searchcube might be more about visual browsing than searching
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:37:28 AM
Someone should show this guy where the "off" switch is for all these boring communications that are so irksome to him
...
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 8:37:55 AM
In the good old days, you knew the addresses of all the sites on the web
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:38:21 AM
Brian: yes - and it's quite interesting as a picture (literally) of e.g. a University's presence on the web
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 8:38:31 AM
WE're starting to see a pattern of applications which do this type of new 3Dish visual intetrfaces e.g. Piclens
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:39:09 AM
Next speaker. is ALsion WIlidish
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:39:24 AM
It's like coverflow I guess
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 8:39:34 AM
Lot's of love from Mike McConell
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:39:42 AM
Alison: just what I was going to say :)
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 8:39:44 AM
But not toward Mike Nolan
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:39:57 AM
18000 students at EHU I'll have you know!
by Mike Nolan at 7/23/2008 8:40:41 AM
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 8:42:54 AM
www.slideshare.net http://www.slideshare.net/awildish/look-whos-talking-now/
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:43:41 AM
what is it about speakers at this meeting and Bath? Or is it just the centre of the universe
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 8:45:36 AM
It's where all good things come from
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:46:48 AM
Erk - it is too easy to edit posts here accidentally
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 8:46:53 AM
Yes, Janet - there are usability issues!
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:47:19 AM
Brian: 90% of the time it doesn't matter though :)
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 8:47:45 AM
@janet - yes I thought I was copying a URL yesterday and managed to delete a post and replace it with a C
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 8:48:18 AM
Yes, the AJAX interface causes problems
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:48:49 AM
*nod* I was trying to open the link in a new tab
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 8:49:02 AM
can we just have an IRC channel next time? 8-)
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 8:50:14 AM
has audio gone very quiet??
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 8:50:24 AM
Alison was talking about too many cooks (for those with audio only)
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:50:34 AM
@andypowell no seems fine in the room
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 8:51:03 AM
@andy try refreshing
by mikewhyment at 7/23/2008 8:51:27 AM
is there any evidence that academics are moving their 'personal' websites off university servers in the way that undergraduates are taking their email to 3rd party services?
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 8:51:46 AM
SHould I have stuck with Coveritlive? Reason I didn't was the need to (mostly)moderate comments
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:52:00 AM
I wonder if they are developing an avatar that embodies the ethos of the Bath brand?
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:52:01 AM
@Cameron we are trying to move 'personal' web sites off our servers
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:52:48 AM
@cameronneylon: as far as I can tell fewer and fewer people even *have* personal websites these days...
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 8:53:29 AM
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 8:53:43 AM
90% of them are boring... :-)
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 8:54:09 AM
Thanks Mike - have replied
by Sally EH at 7/23/2008 8:55:03 AM
oh - now I get the problem with links :)
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 8:55:31 AM
Type URL in twice
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 8:55:51 AM
@sally replied back
by mikewhyment at 7/23/2008 8:56:32 AM
openwetware.org:Cameron_Neylon openwetware.org/wiki/User:Cameron_Neylon
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 8:56:37 AM
I mean, instead of having a 'home page' people have a blog, and their facebook profile, etc etc. (Maybe I am just hoping to hasten the death of the personal home page because my own is so woefully
out of date!!)
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 8:56:48 AM
There are hardly any sites that have a ~ in the url any more
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 8:57:51 AM
most people point at their blog when leaving blog comments I guess. I tend to point at my blog when commenting on blogs and the personal page for stuff where people might want to figure out who I am rather than what I think
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 8:57:58 AM
i tend to use my claimid.com OpenID as my 'home page' these days - actually, i use it more as a home page than i do as an OpenID :-(
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 9:01:37 AM
anybody have a proper FOAF file anywhere?
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 9:02:16 AM
I've still got a FOAF file.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 9:02:31 AM
nope... it's something i've thought about (for years) but never seen the point
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 9:02:54 AM
oldskool :)
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 9:03:06 AM
yup, mine is on my personal page ;)
by Jeremy Harmer at 7/23/2008 9:03:10 AM
I just tell people to look at my .plan
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 9:03:44 AM
www.ukoln.ac.uk http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/ukoln/staff/b.kesdsdfsdflly/foaf/ctt
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 9:03:53 AM
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 9:05:24 AM
can anyone else get copy-and-paste to work out of this system? doesn't seem to work for me
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 9:05:46 AM
(is there *any* way to click on links without 'editing' the post?)
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 9:05:49 AM
using FF, right click and open in new tab - works for me
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 9:06:16 AM
i right click and open in new tab`
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 9:06:21 AM
if you actually go Edit -> Copy rather than trying to use key commands, it does work
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 9:07:12 AM
@Janet ah, right. thanks
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 9:07:53 AM
Alison: it works for opening the link but it still tries to edit...
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 9:08:08 AM
Get Creative week is a *really* good idea
by Mike Nolan at 7/23/2008 9:09:14 AM
"Get Creative" - sounds good, kind of official university hackfest
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 9:09:19 AM
could make it an IWMW thing - get all institutions who can to do something for it, have some kind of
show-and-tell afterwards
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 9:10:22 AM
That's kind of the idea behind the innovation competition
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 9:10:47 AM
Hard enough to get submissions for innovation comp
by Mike Nolan at 7/23/2008 9:10:55 AM
Brian: yes - but so hard to find the time for that, it doesn't 'count' as 'work' if you see what I mean
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 9:11:29 AM
The trouble is there is never enough time 'at home' to get the time to innovate
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 9:11:35 AM
its tough to get people to take time out to do these kind of things. Probably has to come from internal management - as isthe case here.
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 9:11:37 AM
If individual managers have the clout to organise a week out like Alison appears to have done then we could do some interesting things
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 9:12:27 AM
If there was a kind of official Institutional Innovation Week it might be easier to convince mgmt that it wasn't some kind of crackpot idea, that other universities are doing it
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 9:12:57 AM
Let's declare one!
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 9:13:21 AM
Hurrah!
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 9:13:43 AM
Decisions at Edge Hill are often made very quickly when it matters.
by Mike Nolan at 7/23/2008 9:13:48 AM
Is it a Bar camp theme?
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 9:14:00 AM
might need to change the name though - institutionalised innovation doesn't sound great :)
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 9:14:05 AM
Decisions at Oxford tend to take hundreds of years :-}
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 9:14:07 AM
Mike Ellis is the man to talk to re Bathcamp - note museum focus to| it
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 9:14:31 AM
But I think it would be best if it wasn't just a technical thing.
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 9:15:07 AM
That's just for geeks!
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 9:15:15 AM
Bath camp isn't just for techies
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 9:15:26 AM
"Creative Week" doesn't have to mean technical innovation
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 9:15:38 AM
I was talking about this afternoon
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 9:15:57 AM
/me is trying to come up with a fancy backronym for 'CREATE'
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 9:16:06 AM
by MikeJones at 7/23/2008 9:19:06 AM
sounds cool - wonder if I can make it - have visitor from the states at that time but he may be heading up to Manchester that day
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 9:21:39 AM
If people are saying we need to communicate what we're doing better, why do so few Web Services depts have a blog?
by Mike Nolan at 7/23/2008 9:27:25 AM
because 90 %of them are boring
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 9:27:58 AM
one of yesterdays parallel sessions was exactly on that - made me think 'why not!' as we implement them for everyone else
by Jeremy Harmer at 7/23/2008 9:28:30 AM
We've had one for over a year and it goes down very well.
by Mike Nolan at 7/23/2008 9:29:28 AM
Time for coffee
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 9:29:42 AM
We have one too - but I'm not sure how widely used it is outside Web Services - it's a kind of note-taking tool for the guys.
by Jeremy Speller at 7/23/2008 9:58:29 AM
SEssion about to start.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:03:36 AM
Mike Whymet is chairing
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:03:50 AM
Rob Bristow, JISC - Institutional Responses to Emergent Technologies
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:04:40 AM
@Brian - I htink my probem viewing the video is due to firewall blocking at our end - do you have a link to any rtmp flash streams (not necessarily live) that I can test this theory with?
by Sally EH at 7/23/2008 10:05:51 AM
@Sally too techie for me.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:06:46 AM
R U a Skyper?
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:07:44 AM
yes
by Sally EH at 7/23/2008 10:08:23 AM
there must be something on
by mikewhyment at 7/23/2008 10:08:41 AM
by mikewhyment at 7/23/2008 10:08:43 AM
ring me @ brian.kelly
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:08:50 AM
now?
by Sally EH at 7/23/2008 10:08:58 AM
yes. I've muted sound but you might be a ble to listen
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:09:14 AM
how cool @D
by Sally EH at 7/23/2008 10:09:24 AM
thanks
by Sally EH at 7/23/2008 10:09:26 AM
@Janet - JISC makes mistakes of behalf of institutions, too
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:12:22 AM
:-)
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 10:12:48 AM
Trying out on-the-fly accessibility with a Skype channel to Sally EH
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:13:59 AM
@Brian - pretty cool Brian - If the sound were better quality this would be workable/
by Sally EH at 7/23/2008 10:14:29 AM
I didn't bring external mike, I;m afraid - too many gadgets in my pocket
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:15:14 AM
left my external mike in my room :(
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 10:15:52 AM
Lol you can never have too many gadgets
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 10:15:54 AM
@Brian - are the slides for this talk on the site?
by Sally EH at 7/23/2008 10:16:37 AM
Don
t think so
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:16:49 AM
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:17:23 AM
www.slideshare.net - these are all tagged ones, its not there
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 10:17:33 AM
Just checked my blog - 400 posts. I guess 40 might be useful :-)
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:18:11 AM
:-D
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 10:18:30 AM
@brian can you rip the mic off the desk and stick that into your machine....
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 10:20:08 AM
Aw, sounds like there isn't going to be a Second Life avatar that embodies the spirit of JISC...
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 10:20:15 AM
Our director of Computing Services seems to :-/
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 10:20:32 AM
Will loook into getting mike after Rob has finished speaking
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:20:47 AM
Oh, it must be good then!
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 10:20:48 AM
I'd say its good for some things but people haven't really done anything truly interesting or different with it
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 10:20:59 AM
@Brian Rob needs your Not Creative Commons bit of paper
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 10:21:28 AM
we've got loads of people who think they want to do things
with it but don't really know what/how
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 10:21:39 AM
its actually pretty good for holding meetings and poster sessions - I was surprised how good it was
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 10:21:51 AM
James (sitting next to me) is going to use
the radio mic after Rob has finished
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 10:21:58 AM
@ Janet - sounds familiar
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 10:22:14 AM
I think the problem is that actually building things in SL is harder than it looks....
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 10:22:37 AM
building things that don't look rubbish, I mean :-}
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 10:22:45 AM
I have a head set & web cam in my room.
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 10:22:50 AM
@MikeNolan Not sure Second Life itself "has a point" but you can do various things with/in it
by PeteJ at 7/23/2008 10:22:52 AM
but there is a lot of nonsense - dropping an image of your building into SL is not terribly useful in and of itself
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 10:22:57 AM
@cameron Sure, agreed
by PeteJ at 7/23/2008 10:23:31 AM
its best for prototyping things and creating experienecs you can't do in RL. THe best example I've heard of was an area that was intended to recreate the perspective of a schizophrenic. Also some very cool physics teaching tools that work by showing what happens when you change the rules
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 10:24:11 AM
I think
with a lot of new tech people's first response is to use it to recreate things they've already done in old tech - so people publish web versions of paper docs, and people recreate real buildings in SL - but that's kind of a first phase of finding out what the tech can do.
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 10:24:17 AM
Was that...
Use social networks 93%; use online communities 12%
by Mike Nolan at 7/23/2008 10:24:43 AM
@Janet - yes so true - it takes a while for potential to become obvious - and then more for people with imagination to figure out what interesting stuff can be done
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 10:27:40 AM
Green ICT stuff is interesting.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:32:21 AM
Apparently IT and Flying are equal in terms of carbon costs - both 2% each
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:32:42 AM
90% of it is boring?
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 10:32:51 AM
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 10:33:17 AM
wow - didn't know carbon footprint of IT was so high
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 10:35:33 AM
Brian: I'd want to see more detailed figures on types of flying and types of IT(ie leisure/business)
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 10:35:39 AM
Talk given by John Selby, HEFCE at JISC Innovation Forum last week. The figures surprised many of us.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:36:07 AM
Does that include full lifecycle costs
inc. manufacturing and shipping from China ;-)
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 10:37:01 AM
couldn't read that via the stream :-)
by MikeJones at 7/23/2008 10:37:13 AM
It's all illegal - breif summary
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:37:30 AM
couldn't read it from the back of the auditorium! Are the slides online?
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 10:37:49 AM
basically a long diatribe about information security, privacy data etc etc.
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 10:37:55 AM
SLides not yer available
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:38:01 AM
www.web2rights.org.uk http://www.web2rights.org.uk/
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:39:33 AM
In my experience most academics etc couldn't care less about where they get stuff from or whether they should or shouldn't be putting things on their own sites etc
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 10:40:18 AM
www.web2rights.org.uk http://www.web2rights.org.uk/iptoolkit/IPR_Flowchart.pdf
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:40:19 AM
@adrian: true - too true - there is far to little knowledge of copyright but they'd be the first to scream if their work was ripped...
by Jeremy Harmer at 7/23/2008 10:41:34 AM
James Curaal starting - he's a star
is James
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:41:44 AM
He's using Comped
ium software
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 10:42:36 AM
James used to open his presentations with that line about Powerpoint when I worked for him. That was a long time ago :-)
by PeteJ at 7/23/2008 10:43:41 AM
still true today though - says a lot!
by Jeremy Harmer at 7/23/2008 10:44:17 AM
But I'm sure it always gets a laugh :-)
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 10:44:19 AM
nodding off?
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 10:53:06 AM
No. Ezra's an interesting book actually!
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 10:53:45 AM
it was a joke
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 10:53:58 AM
I know :-)
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 10:54:12 AM
storage is cheap but being selective makes the things we keep more valuable...
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 10:58:22 AM
Where there is value in information, the tools to find information are cost effective
by Mike Nolan at 7/23/2008 10:59:12 AM
which in turn means they should be "actively" curated, but there's the rub... It costs a lot of money to do it properly.
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 10:59:20 AM
similarly with storage, as he says. you do it cheap, you get what you pay for...
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 11:00:35 AM
I mean, you *could* store everything & make it usefully searchable, but then it stops being so cheap.
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 11:01:25 AM
we had someone researching this eons ago - there is a real issue in ensuring what you are storing on remains accessible i.e. CDs will eventually die
by Jeremy Harmer at 7/23/2008 11:02:09 AM
I went to a meeting where pharma archival people were speaking and their attitude was that paper remains the best archival media at the moment
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 11:03:04 AM
*nod* Basically the best archive format we have is paper...
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 11:03:11 AM
It still works for the Egyptians
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 11:03:39 AM
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 11:03:47 AM
You can ignore it and chance are it will be usable in 100 years. Do that with digital data and you're likely to be scuppered after 5 to 10 years.
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 11:03:49 AM
But you can't print out a website...
by Maureen at 7/23/2008 11:04:28 AM
I still have some data on 8" floppy disks. Not sure I can find a drive to put them in though
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 11:04:29 AM
But they make geeky coasters :-)
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 11:04:51 AM
and how long until CDs have the same status? :)
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 11:05:24 AM
we once had to get data off 7-track tapes - we had to ship them to ICL who still had an old deck... same issue as the old floppies.
by Jeremy Harmer at 7/23/2008 11:05:43 AM
Storage conditions too - DVDs seem to go off in the sun!
by Jeremy Harmer at 7/23/2008 11:06:11 AM
What would it mean to archive a web page? Text, images, okay... dynamic content - all possible states/paths? Vast question....
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 11:06:22 AM
depends on your requirements - what do you need/want to preserve and why?
by Maureen at 7/23/2008 11:07:05 AM
Depends why - if back to the legal question, archive every time it changes. Big job... made easier if database generated though but still vast
by Jeremy Harmer at 7/23/2008 11:07:49 AM
its the whole media problem again only many times worse - not only have to archive old tape readers/disks but also servers to run these pages on? SOmeone recently put up the original mozilla page - but no modern web browser can read it
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 11:07:58 AM
and that's the big problem - there's a strong sense that we need to preserve stuff just in case, but not very clear what for...
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 11:08:04 AM
we have had cases of students saying that on the web site the course promised this and that 3 years ago
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 11:09:22 AM
Good example. Anoher is dissertation/theses requirements posted online
by Maureen at 7/23/2008 11:09:48 AM
We "archive" our on-line prospectus every fortnight, using httrack, and gzip the files
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 11:10:42 AM
Posted online - but is the web version claiming to be authoritative?
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 11:11:08 AM
So in theory we can prove what we offered in our prospectus on any particular date.
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 11:11:25 AM
But will the files in the zip file remain accessible without preservation action to avoid format obsolescence etc?
by Maureen at 7/23/2008 11:11:58 AM
Yes Janet, our print prospectus tells people to look on-line for the latest version.
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 11:12:09 AM
hmmm... isn't the lesson from that story that domain name registrations need to be looked after - not that all hosting needs to be in-house??
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 11:12:27 AM
No Maureen, which is where active curation must come into it for "proper" archiving - hence an expensive thing to do properly.
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 11:12:40 AM
but whilst we have the printed versions, it was additional comments made by the course on the site that was at issue
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 11:12:55 AM
I a
gree with andy
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 11:12:58 AM
records manageent issue
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 11:13:16 AM
or that you need a URI not a URL and a resolving service so that you can repoint to a new location
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 11:13:21 AM
a URL *is* a URI !! lol
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 11:13:55 AM
any questions from remote people>
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 11:14:09 AM
Agreed; the big q is how to minimise those costs.
by Maureen at 7/23/2008 11:14:34 AM
As JAmes has said, the key thing first is the policy, not the technology.
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 11:15:30 AM
yes but it points at a place not referencing an object. That was the distinction I meant to make :) Our lab books can in principle be moved to a new site and not break the connections as long as you retain the URI resolver - unfortunately the resolver URL needs to be stable so it doesn't really solve the problem I guess :(
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 11:16:04 AM
Adrian - not sure I wholeheartedly agree with that - policy very important yes but can take a long time to push through, so perhaps policy and strategy need to be developed together?
by Maureen at 7/23/2008 11:17:31 AM
well managed, cool, uris can achieve same thing - - general view that "URLs are locators not identifiers" died out some time ago, at least in W3C circles
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 11:20:39 AM
Well, you need both, but I would still argue that policy needs to come (fractionally) before strategy, as surely the latter should stem from the former? But the reality (in this and probably many other areas) is that we will be doing stuff "on the fly" very often...
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 11:21:04 AM
Agree with @andypowe11. http: URIs identify resources, not places. If some person/organisation doesn't/can't manage their http: URIs, I don't see them managing, say, info: URIs or urn: URIs any better. It comes down to a commitment (of time, money etc)
by PeteJ at 7/23/2008 11:22:33 AM
ok, who is "drunk crofter"? Our guess from Bath - JWK?
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 11:24:21 AM
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 11:25:16 AM
Great talk!
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 11:27:32 AM
that's fair enough - I was only thinking about our fairly narrow problem of potentially needing to move the site because we don't control the domain names - hadn't really thought about the larger problem of institutional websites before. But I take the point that it is all just information management
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 11:27:37 AM
i missed parts of that... i presume that the overall point was that policy needs to be around 'why' and 'what' rather than 'how' ??
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 11:28:45 AM
A quick 'hi' from LDN to my mates up at #IWMW2008 Sorry I can't be with you this time. J.
by Jon Alsbury at 7/23/2008 11:46:14 AM
minor suggestion #1
... the streaming home page ( IWMW Streaming) should include links to this page and to the programme (or better yet, have a copy of the day's programme embedded into it).
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 11:49:58 AM
minor suggestion #2...
use a live-blogging system that handles URLs properly - being able to share pointers to external content during talks is one of the main benefits of 'virtual' participation
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 11:51:12 AM
minor suggestion #3... brand the video stream - put a ukoln logo on the front of the podium or behind the speaker for goodness sake - 2 mins work - brian, the ukoln marketing people must be swearing about you - or perhaps this isn't a ukoln event?? ;-)
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 11:53:40 AM
trying to find the software that James used in his talk. Anyone have a URL (or URI) :)
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 12:40:54 PM
camera operation on the stream is nice - audio still slightly low - but manageable with headphones on
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 12:41:47 PM
by PeteJ at 7/23/2008 12:43:10 PM
by PeteJ at 7/23/2008 12:43:25 PM
@cameron i have to say that although James had a dig at PPT at the start of his talk, his use of mind maps didn't improve things IMHO - mind maps have a use, but driving a presentation isn't one of them - just my 2p
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 12:43:26 PM
(Sigh)
by PeteJ at 7/23/2008 12:43:40 PM
publish as in "put in a silo" ?? :-)
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 12:44:33 PM
yes - was just interested in playing with it - any better suggestions on how to do presentations? Would be great to have a tracking online version with active links for example
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 12:44:43 PM
sorry... i was being too negative... it was worth an experiment - i think the prob. with using a mindmap to drive a presentation is that it leaves the listener slightly confused about where things are going - a presentation is necessarily linear - it has a start a middle and an end - a mind map is necessarily non-linear - discuss!??
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 12:46:51 PM
I think it depens on purpose of presenation. I felt James did a great job of inspring ppope.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 12:48:20 PM
i don't think the afternoon blog is working any ideas / help?
by Dan Perry at 7/23/2008 12:48:41 PM
i've seen a mindmap as presentation index used effectively a couple of times but not as the actual presentation approach
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 12:48:53 PM
ppt is easy to knock - it's a tool - it can be well used - it can be badly used - there's no point in complaining about the hammer when it is being used to tighten a screw! plus slideshare is now an important tool in amplifying a presentation to a much wider audience - so important to think about that in any presentation materials being prepared
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 12:49:23 PM
@dan working for me - or do you mean "this afternoon'
s blog is off topic"? :-)
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 12:49:54 PM
Let;s stay here for the live blogging
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 12:50:18 PM
fight, fight
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 12:50:32 PM
it's very quiet on the afternoon blog
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 12:50:46 PM
was there a separate one for the afternoon? I just came back to the same page :)
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 12:51:10 PM
ah sorry... are we in the wrong place?
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 12:51:16 PM
me too
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 12:51:20 PM
:-)
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 12:51:21 PM
oops
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 12:51:34 PM
Brian - will the blog be archived? (!)
by Jeremy Harmer at 7/23/2008 12:52:00 PM
yes there is an afternoon blog which i can't get to work. But Brian just said we should stay here?
by Dan Perry at 7/23/2008 12:52:00 PM
so are we staying here or moving over? I vote for staying.
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 12:52:10 PM
Stay here.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 12:52:31 PM
be good if someone in the venue could tell us what is happening and where we should be going?? ;-)
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 12:52:44 PM
Do we need to keep copies of evrything that goes into the outsourced IR in case it disappears
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 12:52:46 PM
I don't know how one finds the different URIs for the different sessions :-(
by PeteJ at 7/23/2008 12:52:50 PM
Brian says stay on this one
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 12:53:07 PM
ok
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 12:53:11 PM
Sorry I was back late and then had problems getting on to nextwork
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 12:53:35 PM
I found the other one and looked at a blank screen wondering where everyone had gone
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 12:53:52 PM
hmmm... the "best way to do it" is to offer them something that is obviously to their benefit!
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 12:54:01 PM
We could mash this scribble data with the video feed, could be interesting?
by Dan Perry at 7/23/2008 12:55:18 PM
I agree - I don't need to be shown how to put stuff in - I need to have it done for me. Is making a good point though - back to the issue of satisfying the seven deadly sins. And pride is the one that drives academics.
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 12:55:25 PM
yes, agreed
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 12:55:45 PM
what is selling it at our place is the number of hits content gets in the IR. About 10 times more than in other lpaces it has been put.
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 12:56:14 PM
odd for librarian to not care about 'long term' issues ??
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 12:56:26 PM
I bet they have a paper copy.....
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 12:56:43 PM
but putting document in a repository is only just about "putting content on the Web" - it could be done so much better (if that is the intention)
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 12:57:58 PM
the fundamental prblem is that the academic publishing industry still operates as though it publishes only on paper - hence crappy things like 'serving content as PDF files' - yuk :-(
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 12:59:31 PM
re: paper - on one project we had the lawyers tell us to print off the CVS every month and put it in a folder :)
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 12:59:32 PM
minor suggestion #4 ... don't put speakers view of slides to one side - all speakers end up looking sideways a lot
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 1:01:19 PM
some forward thinking journals are starting to move on that - but still have to get past the concept of 'online only' as low standard which is still the perception for many. Lots of opportunities in chemistry so Nature Chemistry will be an interesting thing to watch here.
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 1:01:33 PM
Ta ANdy. Various points noted.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 1:01:51 PM
but publishing at multiple points on the web breaks web architecture to a certain extent
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 1:02:23 PM
Who won the prizes for idntifying James Currall's photo?
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 1:02:53 PM
can I come back to David's point on hits? What was the 10x more hits in comparison to?
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 1:03:02 PM
It's news to me that our (Oxford's) repository is so totally central to everything
... :-}
by Janet McKnight at 7/23/2008 1:03:06 PM
Mirroring doesn't break We arch, surely?
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 1:03:18 PM
@brian can't see the winner atm
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 1:04:13 PM
web arch says don't publish single resource at multiple URLs - hiding stuff at multiple physical locations behind single URL using DNS-hiding is OK
by Dan Perry at 7/23/2008 1:05:21 PM
SO mirrors broke Web arch? SO what? Maybe Web arch is broke?
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 1:06:35 PM
interesting discussion at JISC Repositories Roadmap meeting the other day suggesting that primary driver for learning object repositories should be about institutional management of resources, rather than open access sharing as such
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 1:06:56 PM
the bigger problem to me is that it breaks the research architecture. Research communication is fundamentally based on the concept of the paper as a static single object. Mirroring with multiple (poorly described) versions undermines the idea of citing 'the definitive statement' of an idea or result. Mind you I think this is a good thing :)
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 1:07:01 PM
@brian maybe... but very practical things, like Google-juice, tend to break if content is replicated at multiple URLs
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 1:07:57 PM
I agree with Google juice issue - but diversity can bring new (and more) eyes.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 1:08:43 PM
which is equivalent to diluting citation which is a serious problem as citation is the main currency of research credit
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 1:09:09 PM
@andypowe11 I think the "strict" one-URI-per-resource notion has been slightly qualified in the light of e.g. linked data approaches (but yes, introduces problem of managing co-references)
by PeteJ at 7/23/2008 1:09:29 PM
you need to be able to get the data back out of it into other systems (mashups)
by David John Williams at 7/23/2008 1:10:22 PM
Any qs from remote audeince?
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 1:10:25 PM
research arch (scholarly communication) will change - eventually - it will acknowledge the importance of the Web - as every other content-based industry has done - research 'paper' will become first class Web resource (rather than a piece of paper that someone has to save as PDF to put on the Web
)
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 1:11:05 PM
lol
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 1:12:02 PM
Did he say three items in Depot?!
by PeteJ at 7/23/2008 1:12:28 PM
Think so, yes
by Maureen at 7/23/2008 1:12:36 PM
go to Ratemyresearch.comt
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 1:12:48 PM
That;s waht he said. I thbiugh it waa about 60
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 1:12:58 PM
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 1:13:27 PM
It's 28
by StuartLewis at 7/23/2008 1:13:30 PM
www.ukoln.ac.uk http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/web-focus/events/workshops/webmaster-2008/competition/submissions/#submission-4
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 1:13:35 PM
by Maureen at 7/23/2008 1:14:06 PM
Brian, you really need a PA to type for you :-)
by PeteJ at 7/23/2008 1:14:25 PM
MODS and DIDL gets mentioned by Stephen Emmott
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 1:14:32 PM
Will p
ut in a bid to JISC
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 1:15:19 PM
D'oh.
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 1:15:25 PM
You mean Brian wasn't writing in Doric?
by Jeremy Harmer at 7/23/2008 1:15:34 PM
Would they get to go round the world with you to all those jollys (sorry, conferences etc)? :-)
by Adrian Tribe at 7/23/2008 1:16:05 PM
how many cameras are there in the room?
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 1:16:21 PM
I think there are three video cameras
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 1:17:07 PM
works well
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 1:17:23 PM
that's it then for us remoters?
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 1:18:07 PM
thanks to the camera and sound guys
by andypowe11 at 7/23/2008 1:18:19 PM
I think there is a session on in here if you want to learn what web2 is :) I might stay for the bun fight
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 1:19:03 PM
iTunes U service
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 1:22:28 PM
Content hosted on your own servers and published via| an RSS feed
by Alison Smyth at 7/23/2008 1:23:35 PM
we're going to run this session around a laptop so might not work well for those people who are remote
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 1:23:43 PM
sorry - that's the session in the auditoriwum
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 1:24:04 PM
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 1:38:25 PM
www.ukoln.ac.uk http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/web-focus/events/workshops/webmaster-2008/talks/currall/
by Brian Kelly at 7/23/2008 1:38:29 PM
at the real information environment parallel session - talking about external web services being used in internal projects, examples Amazon EC2, Flickr, Youtube, an externall booking service, Google Book search, Google analytics [google..google..amazon..amazon..etc etc], dabbledb, externally hosted blogs, open streetmap
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 2:54:50 PM
economicsnetwork.ac.uk not just a site for documents and databases but increasingly a content provider and filter
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 3:02:22 PM
using amazon to provide listing of all in print economics texts, delicious for links and tags, pbwiki as a CMS which is then sucked onto a central site
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 3:09:03 PM
issues are credibility of source (therefore embed content), free service might go bust (so keep copies of content), content gets branded with external logo (does anyone care?), invisibility to your site search engines (so put description and metadata on our site)
by cameronneylon at 7/23/2008 3:10:33 PM