LEGAL DISCLAIMER: Whilst every effort has been made to ensure the information in this communication is accurate we cannot accept responsibility for any action, legal or otherwise, based on this material.

Brian Kelly	----------------------------------- START OF SESSION --------------------------
Brian Kelly	Welcome to the online discussion on Approaches To Web Development. My name's Brian Kelly and I'm the facilitator. My job title is UK Web Focus - a JISC-funded advisory post to the UK HE and FE communities. Can you please introduce yourselves.
Brian Kelly	For the record, 10 participants at the start
Jenny Niven	My name is Jenny Niven, a member of the VLS team and interested in web development
Emma Templeton	My name is Emma Templeton and I work with the Robert Gordon University developing online courses for its Virtual Campus.
Brian Kelly	For the record, the following are logged in: brian.kelly, elaine.bloss, emma.templeton, evelyn.toseland, iain.middleton, jenny.niven, john.holman, mandy.bentham, ralph.weedon and roy.pearce
Iain Middleton	Hello - Iain Middleton, Web Editor at RGU, currently working on a major redevelopment of all our web services.
Elaine Bloss	I'm Elaine Bloss. I'm the software engineer for the Centre for the Development of New Technologies in Learning here at Bath
Ralph Weedon	Ralph Weedon, Internet Copyright Officer, University of Strathclyde
Roy Pearce	in computing systems, univ of bham, doing mainly unix sys admin
Ralph Weedon	Also Director of the JISC Legal Information Service, well co-coordinator anyway
Brian Kelly	A reminder - a transcript of this session will be made publicly available.
Brian Kelly	The session will only be of use if people contribute - so please don't lurk!
Evelyn Toseland	Evelyn Toseland, webmaster for Faculty of Science, UWE Bristol. I work on online courses and Faculty web pages and make the Intranet
Brian Kelly	------------------ END OF INTRODUCTIONS -----------------------------
Brian Kelly	------------------ Constraints In The Real World ----------------------------
Brian Kelly	In last week's session we discussed Web standards, content, management systems and open sources vs licensed solutions. Now that we've resolved those issues :-) this week I'd like to address the barriers to deploying our preferred solutions.
Brian Kelly	What barriers have you encountered? Feel free to include both technical and non-technical issues.
Jenny Niven	Institutional firewalls are often a problem
Evelyn Toseland	politics....
Mandy Bentham	specify..
Jenny Niven	We had problems with our old chat software on the VLS, many members couldn't access it through their firewalls
Ralph Weedon	Browser type and version has been a problem for multimedia software installation
Elaine Bloss	Yes, these have caused some problems for students using the Blackboard system here.
Roy Pearce	a significant non-tech barrier is the so-called theological differences, ie unix v windows
Evelyn Toseland	yes, my Mozilla fell over this morning using this VLS.
Brian Kelly	NOTE - when asking an individual a question, please give their name to avoid confusion
Emma Templeton	barriers - limited IT support and no expert help available
Mandy Bentham	re barriers - language! no idea what a Mozilla is, but will look it up.
Iain Middleton	Non-technical barriers... where budget/expenditure decisions are taken elsewhere in the organisation
Ralph Weedon	Limited IT support.resources was a problem here, they would only install in one or two labs
Evelyn Toseland	Yes, Emma! Sorry Mandy, it's a browser.
Brian Kelly	Ok. Issues raised: (1) firewalls (and other Sys Adminy stuff); (2) Browser issues (3) Lack of IT support (4) Finance (5) Techie Cultural Issues (Unix vs Windows)
Brian Kelly	Any others?
Evelyn Toseland	How about lack of user knowledge?
Brian Kelly	If not, we'll try and discuss them in order.
Brian Kelly	Issues raised: (1) firewalls (and other Sys Adminy stuff) (2) Browser issues (3) Lack of IT support (4) Finance (5) Techie Cultural Issues (Unix vs Windows) (6) Users / Lack of user knowledge
Ralph Weedon	There may be general policy/legal issues
Evelyn Toseland	Copyright
John Holman	sorry .. I missed this .. these issues are difficulties in achieving .. what?
Roy Pearce	fear of hackers/intruders is a growing concern.
Iain Middleton	User inertia - resistance to change (even when it's good for them)
Brian Kelly	Barriers to deploying our Web services
Evelyn Toseland	not to forget viruses
Elaine Bloss	hackers is certainly a big one-
Jenny Niven	John - we're discussing technical constraints
Brian Kelly	So far we've got - Issues raised: (1) firewalls (and other SysAdmin and security stuff) (2) Browser issues (3) Lack of IT support (4) Finance (5) Techie Cultural Issues (Unix vs Windows) (6) Users / Lack of user knowledge (7) Legal / policy / copyright issues
John Holman	thanks .. ok then security generally, and the trade-off with functionality
Roy Pearce	I wonder f there is a 'drawbridge' mentality, i.e. repel the unknown and stick to the familiar (mixing my metaphors here)
Brian Kelly	Shall we do Issues raised: (1) firewalls (and other SysAdmin and security stuff) (2) Techie Cultural Issues (Unix vs Windows) (3) Browser issues (4) Lack of IT support (5) Finance (6) Users / Lack of user knowledge (7) Legal / policy / copyright issues in that order?
Jenny Niven	Sounds good Brian
Ralph Weedon	Yes
Elaine Bloss	Yep
Emma Templeton	Yes please
Evelyn Toseland	Yes...
Iain Middleton	Yes
Roy Pearce	Ok
Brian Kelly	---- (1) Firewalls (and other SysAdmin and security stuff) ---- Time: 13:12
Brian Kelly	It's good that Roy Pearce is here, as he is a SysAdmin
Brian Kelly	Is your IT Service a barrier? Does it stop you from deploying your projects and services due to security reasons? I guess there is a feeling that this is true
John Holman	Ok .. I’m from the IT service side, and I think there is that perception. It can be hard to get the balance right
Evelyn Toseland	Yes, but staff changes have meant a definite improvement lately
Ralph Weedon	Not so here so far
Iain Middleton	Yes - "security issues" are cited regularly.
Ralph Weedon	IF anything I am concerned there are not the resources to do enough on the security side
Evelyn Toseland	Also that senior mgmt doesn't really understand the security issues.
John Holman	and they are very real .. The problem is to decide on the balance of costs and benefits
Roy Pearce	Ralph, Evelyn - absolutely. we struggle to maintain high levels of security.
Brian Kelly	I used to work in IT Services - and was aware that this was a problem as far as users departments were concerned.
Evelyn Toseland	Yes, Roy, but also they sometimes think things are worse than they are.
Emma Templeton	Isn't this then a communication problem Evelyn
Roy Pearce	Evelyn, I think not (here at Bham) they assume we can do it all,
Brian Kelly	I would agree with Emma - SysAdmins need spin doctors :-)
Evelyn Toseland	Yes, Emma, and isn't it often a matter of educating our users? teach them not to open email attachments, etc.
Elaine Bloss	I agree with Emma. An understanding of the issues would help
Iain Middleton	Most communication round here is by email attachments, including from the IT dept!
Brian Kelly	I think there is a need to educate users of the scale of the problems - e.g. the services which have been badly hacked.
Ralph Weedon	I agree education is needed, but this needs resources and the backing of senior managment/HOd's etc
Evelyn Toseland	Amen.
Elaine Bloss	but do senior management/hod's understand all the issues?
Brian Kelly	I encountered similar issues back in the days of TLTP projects (early 1990s). CBL developers had sexy PCs to develop solutions (e.g. using Toobox). The deliverables couldn't be implemented on the campus network due to security, permissions, file space, etc. problems.
Evelyn Toseland	That's what I mean - we have to educate them first.
Ralph Weedon	Possibly not, is it even on their radar?
Iain Middleton	Education for the users - what kind? Does it make a difference to them *why* they can't do/have such-and-such?
John Holman	I think security is about calculating risks and balancing benefits. understanding the risks can need a lot of technical expertise.
Roy Pearce	Admitting any system needs close attention to ovoid breaches is tantamount to saying it is inadequate.
Emma Templeton	I think the normal user sees system admin and security as things beyond there understanding but a little explanation can go a long way.
John Holman	Understanding the benefits requires other skills - not usually in the same person
Brian Kelly	We addressed this by working closely with departmental developers, getting them involved in writing guidelines on what could and couldn't be done/
Jenny Niven	I think that could be the key - getting developers involved in writing the guidelines
Jenny Niven	Gives them more of a sense of ownership too
Ralph Weedon	Nods in agreement
Emma Templeton	Iain I think its important so that they don’t feel patronised by someone simply saying no you cant do that, if you just say that they’ll always say why not?
Brian Kelly	I gave a talk on getting project deliverables deployed in a service environment recently. See my slides at <http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/web-focus/events/workshops/jisc-jun-2001/>.
Brian Kelly	If anybody would be willing to help, I'd be prepared to try and produce some guidelines based on my slides and input from others. I'd like to do this in any case for JISC-funded projects.
Iain Middleton	Emma - no argument over the need to give an explanation to users if something's not possible
Evelyn Toseland	That would be really helpful, Brian.
Ralph Weedon	Not my area of expertise .... but willing to try and help
Brian Kelly	Roy, would you be willing to give me the SysAdminy perspective? Elaine, can we talk about it (as you're on the same corridor as me)?
Evelyn Toseland	I could help re accessibility?
Elaine Bloss	Yes, sure
Roy Pearce	Brian, yes, of course.
Brian Kelly	Anyone like to be involved? If so email me later (B.Kelly@ukoln.ac.uk)? This is also true for people reading the transcript!
Brian Kelly	Let's move on.
Brian Kelly	---------------- (2) Techie Cultural Issues (Unix vs Windows) ----------------
Jenny Niven	Hello Patricia
Jenny Niven	Hello Andy
Andy Rock	Hi
Patricia Spence	Hi jenny
Andy Rock	[waves to Mandy]
Evelyn Toseland	I get the feeling that there's a Unix good, Windows bad attitude.
Evelyn Toseland	At least among techie people...
Roy Pearce	I’m guilty of this one! Can it be rationalised?
Evelyn Toseland	And recruiters!
Andy Rock	I’m guilty too.
Brian Kelly	The Techie Cultural Issues (Unix vs Windows), etc. is probably related to the previous discussion - Unix people in IT Services being over concerned over security vs departmental developers on PCs want to do things quickly .
Iain Middleton	...but among management here it's the opposite.
Andy Rock	Unix is by far way more stable.
Ralph Weedon	The Microsoft Anti-Trust case and the outpouring of negative articles on Windows, including Security
Evelyn Toseland	Is Unix more powerful?
John Holman	One issue is that proprietary solutions often are linked with windows, open ones with Unix
Ralph Weedon	Does not help, even if some of it is unfair,
Andy Rock	yes, Unix is far 'leaner'
Brian Kelly	However there are also religious views (Linux and Open Source) and a dislike of Bill G and Microsoft.
Elaine Bloss	sure but Microsoft is prevalent amongst users so we have to cater for it
Roy Pearce	I find that few ms devotees have any experience of anything else.
Evelyn Toseland	Isn't it that users come in using Windows and unless they are interested in techie stuff
Evelyn Toseland	That’s where they stay?
Brian Kelly	Last week I argued that we should be agnostic, and support open standards so that systems would interoperate across platforms.
Roy Pearce	Evelyn, yes, is it the schools.colleges that are ms-dependent?
John Holman	yes .. but users shouldn't need to be concerned with the platform for web services
Mandy Bentham	hi -
Evelyn Toseland	Yes Brian!
Andy Rock	Funny enough, Micro$oft just released a white paper on how/why windows is in fact more stable/secure, etc than Unix
Roy Pearce	John, but they are. webct here is such an example.
John Holman	Brian, I’d agree .. but often pressure for proprietary solutions implies pressure for windows
Brian Kelly	However even if we are agnostic, we still have to chose a platform - and that’s when problems can happen.
Evelyn Toseland	Roy, I think it is that that's what ppl learn first. Then they have too many other things to do so they stick there.
Roy Pearce	Andy, have u a URL?
Andy Rock	For?
John Holman	My choice would be Unix for central provision, where there is a choice
Andy Rock	Oh, sorry, no. saw it in the front of Linux mag
Roy Pearce	The ms white paper you mentioned re ms v Unix
Andy Rock	Can’t be too hard to find it, though (unless you look on MS website!)
Evelyn Toseland	I like open source - son works on it - and Linux. politically. But not allowed at work;(
Brian Kelly	We've obviously a lot of interest in this topic, judging by all the messages!
John Holman	Generally open source will work on either windows or Unix ..
Evelyn Toseland	What do you expect on a religious topic, Brian?
Roy Pearce	Evelyn, not allowed? I've just put Solaris on my PC and thrown out windoze
Andy Rock	MS are running a propaganda campaign against Linux right now, which to me, speaks volumes about their fears and predictions
Brian Kelly	I'm not sure if we will reach an agreement on anything. One suggestion I have made in the past is to have a debated on Open Vs Licensed approaches at a conference, or a head-to-head debate in an article.
Andy Rock	and I’ve NEVER seen UNIX crash yet.
John Holman	Evelyn - its not just religion. if you choose Unix some things are not possible - typically Microsoft solutions - that you might otherwise want to use
Ralph Weedon	This is probably daft, but practically (if not economically) could an entire institution leave Windows for an alternative
Evelyn Toseland	I know, John.
Evelyn Toseland	Yes, Ralph, I think they could. Some 3rd world places work on Linux.
Brian Kelly	Sorry Andy I've see Unix systems crash - and my WAP phone , and a Psion and .... Computers do crash.
Roy Pearce	Ralph, is anyone researching the possibility of a windows-free institution?
Andy Rock	I agree with John, it's because MS's proprietary solutions are so commonplace that we can't consider UNIX for end users just yet
John Holman	Ralph - I think it would be hard. But I think apart from desktop systems there is no need for windows
Elaine Bloss	I think Ralph’s got a point. Financially Microsoft have made their products extremely attractive to institutions
Evelyn Toseland	Look at China.
Brian Kelly	Hi Roy, don't know about that but there are large Univs which are getting rid of Unix boxes!
Ralph Weedon	Thanks Evelyn, so is it cost that stops UK people or ignorance, or cannot be bothered ...
Brian Kelly	For example Leeds Univ (where I used to work) and Leicester - an early adopter of Windows 2000.
Evelyn Toseland	I think it's lack of knowledge on the part of the bosses, not the programmers.
John Holman	Brian - I wonder what the basis of such decisions really is
Evelyn Toseland	They don't know anything about eg Linux except that hackers use it, but they have all heard of Windows
Roy Pearce	perhaps univs can no longer afford good Unix people. (I'm too old to move now so I stay!)
Ralph Weedon	Not sure any research on Windows free places --- Brian, would you fancy doing an article?!!!
Elaine Bloss	but is also a perception - on the users part- of usability when comparing Unix and windows
Brian Kelly	Roy's issue about technical expertise is a good one - we'll discuss that later
Evelyn Toseland	Yes Elaine.
Brian Kelly	Shall we move on?
Roy Pearce	Yes
Elaine Bloss	Ok
Ralph Weedon	Ok
John Holman	Ok
Iain Middleton	Yes
Evelyn Toseland	Yup
Mandy Bentham	Yes
Andy Rock	Let’s. no-one's going to fully agree on the MS v UNIX one
Brian Kelly	------------------ (3) Browser issues ------------------------- 13:34
Andy Rock	ah, another emotive topic
Andy Rock	Lol
Roy Pearce	Is there a future for mozilla/netscape/opera?
Brian Kelly	Possibly another MS vs the opposition, but also some other issues.
Andy Rock	I think so, Roy.
Ralph Weedon	Despite efforts I still cannot get my PC to have Netscape as a default ... is this just my technical ignorance
Brian Kelly	Let's do the non-contentious stuff first
Brian Kelly	What do we do about old browsers?
John Holman	That’s non-contentious!?
Evelyn Toseland	We have to accept them.
Roy Pearce	How old is old?
Andy Rock	We have to cater for them but draw the line somewhere
Brian Kelly	Having to provide support for flaky old browsers, which have bugs and don't support modern stuff (JavaScript, certificates, CSS, etc.) is a problem.
Andy Rock	I don't do anything for less than level 4
Evelyn Toseland	Not if you make your pages accessible?
Evelyn Toseland	Not that mine are...
Ralph Weedon	There may be legal issues --- SEN and Disability law, accessibility generally
Evelyn Toseland	Yes Ralph.
Brian Kelly	There are solutions to the accessibility issues.
Andy Rock	the real trick, I think, is keeping things simple-ish
Iain Middleton	It's a question of assessing their importance to ongoing business
Elaine Bloss	I think a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere.
Andy Rock	yes, definitely, Elaine
Roy Pearce	Who monitors browser agent signatures to get a feel for %age of old browsers in use.
John Holman	Yes Elaine .. eg SSL is needed, basic javascript is needed
Evelyn Toseland	If you want to get your message to everyone don't you have to write for all browsers?
Brian Kelly	D'oh pressed the wrong button and lost my chat session!
Evelyn Toseland	Know that feeling.
Elaine Bloss	sure, after how many software companies still write applications that can be run on 286's?
Andy Rock	the cost issue is a reason why I feel that open source dev will eventually gain momentum
Brian Kelly	Maximising support for devices means XML, XSLT, ... not writing HTML which NS 3 can understand
Roy Pearce	ns 03 about 6%; msie <4 about 1%; hotjava 0%!
Evelyn Toseland	That's all right, Brian, if your institution supports those things.
Andy Rock	if you can run UINX and Mozilla for free, and your costs need to be low, why would you pay MS for their stuff?>
John Holman	Brian - why would you need to deliver xml etc to the browser? isn't the point of xslt etc to allow different versions for different devices?
Brian Kelly	I agree with Elaine that you have to make a decision. I am in discussions with JISC about the processes for defining the level
Roy Pearce	Andy, do you mean mozilla or netscape?
Andy Rock	depends on which netscape we're on about, lol.
Brian Kelly	hi John, yes but you'll be sending XHTML & CSS which some old browsers won't support properly.
Andy Rock	6 is practically Mozilla anyway, isn't it?
John Holman	Brian - why not send html adapted to the browser?
Evelyn Toseland	John - using server solutions?
Roy Pearce	Andy, not sure but mozilla holds up better than ns6 on my pc
Brian Kelly	Keeping things simple, focussing on old browsers will, quite simply, mean that you can't develop the type of solutions which many users expect these days!
Andy Rock	I think they're based around the same engine.
Andy Rock	I can hardly talk; I still use IE
Andy Rock	Lol
John Holman	ah, ok, maybe one criterion for acceptable browser is that it can cope with XHTML, for Brian's reason
Elaine Bloss	and it's the users expectations that are driving the development of the browsers forward
Evelyn Toseland	Some users.
Roy Pearce	how about standards conformity? where's the gospel on this for non-old browsers?
Brian Kelly	Note to Evelyn - in a JANET environment, it would be possible to provide solutions on the network, so they aren't needed locally (cf Athens which is a centralised authentication service)
Evelyn Toseland	As long as ppl are accessing over Janet, Brian?
Brian Kelly	The W3C gospel is that old browsers are broken and that we should be providing the standards stuff - XML, XHTML, CSS, XSLT
Andy Rock	personally, I believe Netscape sticks to the standards rigidly. which is sometimes the problem.
Brian Kelly	WHAT- Andy? Netscape have broken every standard in sight :-(
John Holman	Brian - in the past such gospels have failed (think OSI networking, X400 etc) in the face of missing products
Andy Rock	which version are we talking about?
Andy Rock	sorry, I tend to mean version 6 when I talk about Netscape.
Brian Kelly	Hi John, yes but I'm talking about standards in which there are interoperable solutions available.
Roy Pearce	Brian, reference for ns misdemeanours?
John Holman	Ok - in the face of popular products (e.g. old browsers) that don't support the desired standards (e.g. IP)
Brian Kelly	Have we reached another point where there are distinct views? Shall we move on? (Will reply to Roy)
Elaine Bloss	as time is pressing, yes please
Ralph Weedon	OK
Evelyn Toseland	yes.
Brian Kelly	Roy, I was referring to Netscape's view of standards in the past. I don't know what AOL Netscape will do in the future. I've read that they are moving out of the browser market.
Brian Kelly	--------------- (4) Lack of IT support --------------------
Evelyn Toseland	mmmmm
Roy Pearce	Brian, mmm, can't see that aol will stick with browser product.
Brian Kelly	We want to do innovative stuff, or wide ranging stuff, or stick will the current stuff, but we haven't got the IT support. What do we do?
Evelyn Toseland	Learn to do it ourselves?
Brian Kelly	I'm assuming that we are all busy enough as is!
Emma Templeton	There is a lot of that going on just now Evelyn
Iain Middleton	If we do it badly enough, someone'll notice and pity us...
Elaine Bloss	That's been CDNTL's general way of sorting it out
Evelyn Toseland	I hope so, Iain, but it hasn't happened yet;)
Brian Kelly	Are there extra resources we can be making use of?
Ralph Weedon	Staff Development???
Evelyn Toseland	There's lots online but you need hours to find things. A directory would help
Jenny Niven	Probably, it's finding the time to locate those resources though
Brian Kelly	How about student effort? How about providing projects for use by the many MSCs in Internet technologies that are now available?
Evelyn Toseland	Yes Ralph!
John Holman	Student supervision requires support also
Ralph Weedon	Good Idea, needs someone to take this forward though
Elaine Bloss	Student effort is good but what about when the students leaves
Ralph Weedon	Agreed, student projects can require support and resources
Brian Kelly	I was thinking about student projects exploring the issues, rather than delivering solutions.
Brian Kelly	So, can you develop a solution using XML and XSLT which can be accessed by a range of current browsers? Let a student project fid the answer
Ralph Weedon	OK, but who then delivers the solutions?
Brian Kelly	If the project provides the approach is feasible, then we develop it / buy it for ourselves.
Ralph Weedon	UMM ....
Elaine Bloss	Which then comes back to an issues of resources
John Holman	I think the costs are mostly in development and long term support - not initial investigation
Brian Kelly	Another issue is development for ourselves. Is there any scope in job exchange, for example?
Andy Rock	I agree
Ralph Weedon	Can you say more on this Brian?
Evelyn Toseland	Brian, anything about staff development would be good.
Evelyn Toseland	Job exchange as in secondments?
Brian Kelly	There are various professional bodies for Web developers, e.g. WoW (no URL to hand)
Andy Rock	I think that the power of self teaching is very underrated, especially by ourselves
Brian Kelly	Secondments is one possibility
Andy Rock	by ourselves, I mean our own perceptions of what we can do
Elaine Bloss	But knowledge sharing even within institutions could be encouraged
Evelyn Toseland	Can I ask, how many here are self-taught?
Brian Kelly	I suspect there may be advantages in closer liaison with Computer Science departments.
Andy Rock	[puts hand up]
Evelyn Toseland	I am.
Brian Kelly	Me too
John Holman	Brian - certainly true for us
Emma Templeton	yeap
Elaine Bloss	Me
Roy Pearce	Brian, wow is at www.joinwow.org
John Holman	yep
Ralph Weedon	Partly
Iain Middleton	aye
Andy Rock	I learn virtually everything I need to know from the web or researching what I need to know
Brian Kelly	What magazines, books, courses, etc would you recommend?
Roy Pearce	is there much contact between compsci and comp centres? we were once a single dept. now como centre is part of the library.
Evelyn Toseland	Lynda Weinman!
Brian Kelly	I get Web techniques, Internet Works, Internet Magazine, all of which are useful.
Jenny Niven	Andy - I'd add colleagues to that list
John Holman	Roy - we have informal contact and good agreement on technical strategy as a result
Evelyn Toseland	She did (does)some brilliant stuff on graphics for web.
Andy Rock	Yes, definitely. I learn so much just from the people in the room I work in.
Evelyn Toseland	Internet Works is good.
Brian Kelly	I've heard the Netskills courses are good (nb. I used to work for them).
Andy Rock	We bounce each other's ideas around and get five opinions
Roy Pearce	mags - see webdeveloper.com
Andy Rock	Lol, Brian.
Evelyn Toseland	And Web-support, Brian - that's been my most helpful resource (smarm)
Andy Rock	I trawl newsgroups.
Andy Rock	so much in there. You just have to learn to filter the spam as you read
Brian Kelly	As well as mailing lists and newsgroup, should we use other fora?
Elaine Bloss	Newsgroups have been a good source of info for me
Evelyn Toseland	Email groups in general. Webd.
Roy Pearce	oops, mag is web techniques
Ralph Weedon	Yes, have done netskills courses, they are good but not many alternatives?
John Holman	I learn a lot (in technical areas) from mailing lists for open source developments etc
Evelyn Toseland	Not too struck on netskills.
Jenny Niven	The bells outside are telling me it's 2pm. Are there any more burning issues to discuss? We can always continue in the discussion room if people need to leave
Brian Kelly	For example, how about a regular online chat, with a variety of experts facilitating discussions?
Evelyn Toseland	Yes please!
Andy Rock	Sounds good
Elaine Bloss	Yes that would be very helpful
Jenny Niven	Brian - that sounds great
Brian Kelly	I can stay for 10 mins or so.
Roy Pearce	see www.webtechniques.com
Iain Middleton	Oh yes...
Ralph Weedon	OK, thanks
Jenny Niven	Would people like to continue with experts in the VLS?
Evelyn Toseland	Yes please.
Roy Pearce	Jenny, yes please.
Andy Rock	Ok
Emma Templeton	Yes
Elaine Bloss	Yes
Ralph Weedon	Yes
Evelyn Toseland	I have to go cook a duck! Thank you very much, Brian et al.
Brian Kelly	Jenny, have you got a way of contacting everyone? I advertised on a couple of JISCmail lists.
Brian Kelly	One final comment.
Andy Rock	I’ve just been informed that I’m late for a team meeting! sorry, everyone, I have to go. speak to you soon:-)
Brian Kelly	Next year's Institutional Web Management Workshop will be at Strathclyde in June. I'd like to use that as a forum for addressing issues raised today.
Jenny Niven	sorry, lost connection briefly
Evelyn Toseland	Hope to get there.
Roy Pearce	I’ve enjoyed this. Blush, blush -first time I've visited a chat room for ages. bye everyone.
Evelyn Toseland	Bye and thanks.
Brain Kelly	In Belfast in June, we agreed to use technology such as this to discuss issues which should be covered. I'd like to continue a debate on this topic using an online chat somewhere.
Jenny Niven	Brian - thanks for hosting another great discussion
Elaine Bloss	yes, thanks Brian
Jenny Niven	I hope to see you all in the discussion room for continued debate
Jenny Niven	Brian - yes we can contact everyone
John Holman	Jenny - how to get there?
Jenny Niven	Click on community, then discussion rooms
Emma Templeton	Yes thanks Brian and jenny at the VLS for hosting this interesting session
Jenny Niven	The room you're after is Web Development & Design
John Holman	Thanks all .. bye
Jenny Niven	Bye for now
Ralph Weedon	Many thanks Brian and Jenny
Iain Middleton	Thanks Brian, thanks Jenny, and everyone else. Bye!

LEGAL DISCLAIMER: Whilst every effort has been made to ensure the information in this communication is accurate we cannot accept responsibility for any action, legal or otherwise, based on this material.