LEGAL DISCLAIMER: Whilst every effort has been made to ensure the information in this communication is accurate we cannot accept responsibility for any action, legal or otherwise, based on this material.

Brian Kelly

-----------------------------------START OF SESSION --------------------------

Brian Kelly

Welcome to the online discussion on Approaches To Web Development.†† My name's Brian Kelly and I'm the facilitator.My job title is UK Web Focus - a JISC-funded advisory post to the UK HE and FE communities.Can you please introduce yourselves.

Brian Kelly

For the record, 10 participants at the start

Jenny Niven

My name is Jenny Niven, a member of the VLS team and interested in web development

Emma Templeton

My name is Emma Templeton and I work with the Robert Gordon University developing online courses for its Virtual Campus.

Brian Kelly

For the record, the following are logged in: brian.kelly, elaine.bloss, emma.templeton, evelyn.toseland, iain.middleton, jenny.niven, john.holman, mandy.bentham, ralph.weedon and roy.pearce

Iain Middleton

Hello - Iain Middleton, Web Editor at RGU, currently working on a major redevelopment of all our web services.

Elaine Bloss

I'm Elaine Bloss. I'm the software engineer for the Centre for the Development of New Technologies in Learning here at Bath

Ralph Weedon

Ralph Weedon, Internet Copyright Officer, University of Strathclyde

Roy Pearce

in computing systems, univ of bham, doing mainly unix sys admin

Ralph Weedon

Also Director of the JISC Legal Information Service, well co-coordinator anyway

Brian Kelly

A reminder - a transcript of this session will be made publicly available.

Brian Kelly

The session will only be of use if people contribute - so please don't lurk!

Evelyn Toseland

Evelyn Toseland, webmaster for Faculty of Science, UWE Bristol. I work on online courses and Faculty web pages and make the Intranet

Brian Kelly

------------------ END OF INTRODUCTIONS -----------------------------

Brian Kelly

------------------ Constraints In The Real World ----------------------------

Brian Kelly

In last week's session we discussed Web standards, content, management systems and open sources vs licensed solutions.Now that we've resolved those issues :-) this week I'd like to address the barriers to deploying our preferred solutions.

Brian Kelly

What barriers have you encountered?Feel free to include both technical and non-technical issues.

Jenny Niven

Institutional firewalls are often a problem

Evelyn Toseland

politics....

Mandy Bentham

specify..

Jenny Niven

We had problems with our old chat software on the VLS, many members couldn't access it through their firewalls

Ralph Weedon

Browser type and version has been a problem for multimedia software installation

Elaine Bloss

Yes, these have caused some problems for students using the Blackboard system here.

Roy Pearce

a significant non-tech barrier is the so-called theological differences, ie unix v windows

Evelyn Toseland

yes, my Mozilla fell over this morning using this VLS.

Brian Kelly

NOTE - when asking an individual a question, please give their name to avoid confusion

Emma Templeton

barriers - limited IT support and no expert help available

Mandy Bentham

re barriers - language! no idea what a Mozilla is, but will look it up.

Iain Middleton

Non-technical barriers... where budget/expenditure decisions are taken elsewhere in the organisation

Ralph Weedon

Limited IT support.resources was a problem here, they would only install in one or two labs

Evelyn Toseland

Yes, Emma! Sorry Mandy, it's a browser.

Brian Kelly

Ok.Issues raised: (1) firewalls (and other Sys Adminy stuff); (2) Browser issues (3) Lack of IT support (4) Finance (5) Techie Cultural Issues (Unix vs Windows)

Brian Kelly

Any others?

Evelyn Toseland

How about lack of user knowledge?

Brian Kelly

If not, we'll try and discuss them in order.

Brian Kelly

Issues raised: (1) firewalls (and other Sys Adminy stuff) (2) Browser issues (3) Lack of IT support (4) Finance (5) Techie Cultural Issues (Unix vs Windows) (6) Users / Lack of user knowledge

Ralph Weedon

There may be general policy/legal issues

Evelyn Toseland

Copyright

John Holman

sorry .. I missed this .. these issues are difficulties in achieving .. what?

Roy Pearce

fear of hackers/intruders is a growing concern.

Iain Middleton

User inertia - resistance to change (even when it's good for them)

Brian Kelly

Barriers to deploying our Web services

Evelyn Toseland

not to forget viruses

Elaine Bloss

hackers is certainly a big one-

Jenny Niven

John - we're discussing technical constraints

Brian Kelly

So far we've got - Issues raised: (1) firewalls (and other SysAdmin and security stuff) (2) Browser issues (3) Lack of IT support (4) Finance (5) Techie Cultural Issues (Unix vs Windows) (6) Users / Lack of user knowledge (7) Legal / policy / copyright issues

John Holman

thanks .. ok then security generally, and the trade-off with functionality

Roy Pearce

I wonder f there is a 'drawbridge' mentality, i.e. repel the unknown and stick to the familiar (mixing my metaphors here)

Brian Kelly

Shall we do Issues raised: (1) firewalls (and other SysAdmin and security stuff) (2) Techie Cultural Issues (Unix vs Windows)(3) Browser issues (4) Lack of IT support (5) Finance (6) Users / Lack of user knowledge (7) Legal / policy / copyright issues in that order?

Jenny Niven

Sounds good Brian

Ralph Weedon

Yes

Elaine Bloss

Yep

Emma Templeton

Yes please

Evelyn Toseland

Yes...

Iain Middleton

Yes

Roy Pearce

Ok

Brian Kelly

---- (1) Firewalls (and other SysAdmin and security stuff) ----Time: 13:12

Brian Kelly

It's good that Roy Pearce is here, as he is a SysAdmin

Brian Kelly

Is your IT Service a barrier?Does it stop you from deploying your projects and services due to security reasons?I guess there is a feeling that this is true

John Holman

Ok .. Iím from the IT service side, and I think there is that perception. It can be hard to get the balance right

Evelyn Toseland

Yes, but staff changes have meant a definite improvement lately

Ralph Weedon

Not so here so far

Iain Middleton

Yes - "security issues" are cited regularly.

Ralph Weedon

IF anything I am concerned there are not the resources to do enough on the security side

Evelyn Toseland

Also that senior mgmt doesn't really understand the security issues.

John Holman

and they are very real .. The problem is to decide on the balance of costs and benefits

Roy Pearce

Ralph, Evelyn - absolutely. we struggle to maintain high levels of security.

Brian Kelly

I used to work in IT Services - and was aware that this was a problem as far as users departments were concerned.

Evelyn Toseland

Yes, Roy, but also they sometimes think things are worse than they are.

Emma Templeton

Isn't this then a communication problem Evelyn

Roy Pearce

Evelyn, I think not (here at Bham) they assume we can do it all,

Brian Kelly

I would agree with Emma - SysAdmins need spin doctors :-)

Evelyn Toseland

Yes, Emma, and isn't it often a matter of educating our users?teach them not to open email attachments, etc.

Elaine Bloss

I agree with Emma. An understanding of the issues would help

Iain Middleton

Most communication round here is by email attachments, including from the IT dept!

Brian Kelly

I think there is a need to educate users of the scale of the problems - e.g. the services which have been badly hacked.

Ralph Weedon

I agree education is needed, but this needs resources and the backing of senior managment/HOd's etc

Evelyn Toseland

Amen.

Elaine Bloss

but do senior management/hod's understand all the issues?

Brian Kelly

I encountered similar issues back in the days of TLTP projects (early 1990s).CBL developers had sexy PCs to develop solutions (e.g. using Toobox).The deliverables couldn't be implemented on the campus network due to security, permissions, file space, etc. problems.

Evelyn Toseland

That's what I mean - we have to educate them first.

Ralph Weedon

Possibly not, is it even on their radar?

Iain Middleton

Education for the users - what kind? Does it make a difference to them *why* they can't do/have such-and-such?

John Holman

I think security is about calculating risks and balancing benefits. understanding the risks can need a lot of technical expertise.

Roy Pearce

Admitting any system needs close attention to ovoid breaches is tantamount to saying it is inadequate.

Emma Templeton

I think the normal user sees system admin and security as things beyond there understanding but a little explanation can go a long way.

John Holman

Understanding the benefits requires other skills - not usually in the same person

Brian Kelly

We addressed this by working closely with departmental developers, getting them involved in writing guidelines on what could and couldn't be done/

Jenny Niven

I think that could be the key - getting developers involved in writing the guidelines

Jenny Niven

Gives them more of a sense of ownership too

Ralph Weedon

Nods in agreement

Emma Templeton

Iain I think its important so that they donít feel patronised by someone simply saying no you cant do that, if you just say that theyíll always say why not?

Brian Kelly

I gave a talk on getting project deliverables deployed in a service environment recently.See my slides at <http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/web-focus/events/workshops/jisc-jun-2001/>.

Brian Kelly

If anybody would be willing to help, I'd be prepared to try and produce some guidelines based on my slides and input from others.I'd like to do this in any case for JISC-funded projects.

Iain Middleton

Emma - no argument over the need to give an explanation to users if something's not possible

Evelyn Toseland

That would be really helpful, Brian.

Ralph Weedon

Not my area of expertise .... but willing to try and help

Brian Kelly

Roy, would you be willing to give me the SysAdminy perspective?Elaine, can we talk about it (as you're on the same corridor as me)?

Evelyn Toseland

I could help re accessibility?

Elaine Bloss

Yes, sure

Roy Pearce

Brian, yes, of course.

Brian Kelly

Anyone like to be involved?If so email me later (B.Kelly@ukoln.ac.uk)?This is also true for people reading the transcript!

Brian Kelly

Let's move on.

Brian Kelly

---------------- (2) Techie Cultural Issues (Unix vs Windows) ----------------

Jenny Niven

Hello Patricia

Jenny Niven

Hello Andy

Andy Rock

Hi

Patricia Spence

Hi jenny

Andy Rock

[waves to Mandy]

Evelyn Toseland

I get the feeling that there's a Unix good, Windows bad attitude.

Evelyn Toseland

At least among techie people...

Roy Pearce

Iím guilty of this one! Can it be rationalised?

Evelyn Toseland

And recruiters!

Andy Rock

Iím guilty too.

Brian Kelly

The Techie Cultural Issues (Unix vs Windows), etc. is probably related to the previous discussion - Unix people in IT Services being over concerned over security vs departmental developers on PCs want to do things quickly .

Iain Middleton

...but among management here it's the opposite.

Andy Rock

Unix is by far way more stable.

Ralph Weedon

The Microsoft Anti-Trust case and the outpouring of negative articles on Windows, including Security

Evelyn Toseland

Is Unix more powerful?

John Holman

One issue is that proprietary solutions often are linked with windows, open ones with Unix

Ralph Weedon

Does not help, even if some of it is unfair,

Andy Rock

yes, Unix is far 'leaner'

Brian Kelly

However there are also religious views (Linux and Open Source) and a dislike of Bill G and Microsoft.

Elaine Bloss

sure but Microsoft is prevalent amongst users so we have to cater for it

Roy Pearce

I find that few ms devotees have any experience of anything else.

Evelyn Toseland

Isn't it that users come in using Windows and unless they are interested in techie stuff

Evelyn Toseland

Thatís where they stay?

Brian Kelly

Last week I argued that we should be agnostic, and support open standards so that systems would interoperate across platforms.

Roy Pearce

Evelyn, yes, is it the schools.colleges that are ms-dependent?

John Holman

yes .. but users shouldn't need to be concerned with the platform for web services

Mandy Bentham

hi -

Evelyn Toseland

Yes Brian!

Andy Rock

Funny enough, Micro$oft just released a white paper on how/why windows is in fact more stable/secure, etc than Unix

Roy Pearce

John, but they are. webct here is such an example.

John Holman

Brian, Iíd agree .. but often pressure for proprietary solutions implies pressure for windows

Brian Kelly

However even if we are agnostic, we still have to chose a platform - and thatís when problems can happen.

Evelyn Toseland

Roy, I think it is that that's what ppl learn first.Then they have too many other things to do so they stick there.

Roy Pearce

Andy, have u a URL?

Andy Rock

For?

John Holman

My choice would be Unix for central provision, where there is a choice

Andy Rock

Oh, sorry, no. saw it in the front of Linux mag

Roy Pearce

The ms white paper you mentioned re ms v Unix

Andy Rock

Canít be too hard to find it, though (unless you look on MS website!)

Evelyn Toseland

I like open source - son works on it - and Linux. politically. But not allowed at work;(

Brian Kelly

We've obviously a lot of interest in this topic, judging by all the messages!

John Holman

Generally open source will work on either windows or Unix ..

Evelyn Toseland

What do you expect on a religious topic, Brian?

Roy Pearce

Evelyn, not allowed? I've just put Solaris on my PC and thrown out windoze

Andy Rock

MS are running a propaganda campaign against Linux right now, which to me, speaks volumes about their fears and predictions

Brian Kelly

I'm not sure if we will reach an agreement on anything.One suggestion I have made in the past is to have a debated on Open Vs Licensed approaches at a conference, or a head-to-head debate in an article.

Andy Rock

and Iíve NEVER seen UNIX crash yet.

John Holman

Evelyn - its not just religion. if you choose Unix some things are not possible - typically Microsoft solutions - that you might otherwise want to use

Ralph Weedon

This is probably daft, but practically (if not economically) could an entire institution leave Windows for an alternative

Evelyn Toseland

I know, John.

Evelyn Toseland

Yes, Ralph, I think they could. Some 3rd world places work on Linux.

Brian Kelly

Sorry Andy I've see Unix systems crash - and my WAP phone , and a Psion and ....Computers do crash.

Roy Pearce

Ralph, is anyone researching the possibility of a windows-free institution?

Andy Rock

I agree with John, it's because MS's proprietary solutions are so commonplace that we can't consider UNIX for end users just yet

John Holman

Ralph - I think it would be hard. But I think apart from desktop systems there is no need for windows

Elaine Bloss

I think Ralphís got a point. Financially Microsoft have made their products extremely attractive to institutions

Evelyn Toseland

Look at China.

Brian Kelly

Hi Roy, don't know about that but there are large Univs which are getting rid of Unix boxes!

Ralph Weedon

Thanks Evelyn, so is it cost that stops UK people or ignorance, or cannot be bothered ...

Brian Kelly

For example Leeds Univ (where I used to work) and Leicester - an early adopter of Windows 2000.

Evelyn Toseland

I think it's lack of knowledge on the part of the bosses, not the programmers.

John Holman

Brian- I wonder what the basis of such decisions really is

Evelyn Toseland

They don't know anything about eg Linux except that hackers use it, but they have all heard of Windows

Roy Pearce

perhaps univs can no longer afford good Unix people. (I'm too old to move now so I stay!)

Ralph Weedon

Not sure any research on Windows free places --- Brian, would you fancy doing an article?!!!

Elaine Bloss

but is also a perception - on the users part- of usability when comparing Unix and windows

Brian Kelly

Roy's issue about technical expertise is a good one - we'll discuss that later

Evelyn Toseland

Yes Elaine.

Brian Kelly

Shall we move on?

Roy Pearce

Yes

Elaine Bloss

Ok

Ralph Weedon

Ok

John Holman

Ok

Iain Middleton

Yes

Evelyn Toseland

Yup

Mandy Bentham

Yes

Andy Rock

Letís. no-one's going to fully agree on the MS v UNIX one

Brian Kelly

------------------ (3) Browser issues------------------------- 13:34

Andy Rock

ah, another emotive topic

Andy Rock

Lol

Roy Pearce

Is there a future for mozilla/netscape/opera?

Brian Kelly

Possibly another MS vs the opposition, but also some other issues.

Andy Rock

I think so, Roy.

Ralph Weedon

Despite efforts I still cannot get my PC to have Netscape as a default ... is this just my technical ignorance

Brian Kelly

Let's do the non-contentious stuff first

Brian Kelly

What do we do about old browsers?

John Holman

Thatís non-contentious!?

Evelyn Toseland

We have to accept them.

Roy Pearce

How old is old?

Andy Rock

We have to cater for them but draw the line somewhere

Brian Kelly

Having to provide support for flaky old browsers, which have bugs and don't support modern stuff (JavaScript, certificates, CSS, etc.) is a problem.

Andy Rock

I don't do anything for less than level 4

Evelyn Toseland

Not if you make your pages accessible?

Evelyn Toseland

Not that mine are...

Ralph Weedon

There may be legal issues --- SEN and Disability law, accessibility generally

Evelyn Toseland

Yes Ralph.

Brian Kelly

There are solutions to the accessibility issues.

Andy Rock

the real trick, I think, is keeping things simple-ish

Iain Middleton

It's a question of assessing their importance to ongoing business

Elaine Bloss

I think a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere.

Andy Rock

yes, definitely,Elaine

Roy Pearce

Who monitors browser agent signatures to get a feel for %age of old browsers in use.

John Holman

Yes Elaine .. eg SSL is needed, basic javascript is needed

Evelyn Toseland

If you want to get your message to everyone don't you have to write for all browsers?

Brian Kelly

D'oh pressed the wrong button and lost my chat session!

Evelyn Toseland

Know that feeling.

Elaine Bloss

sure, after how many software companies still write applications that can be run on 286's?

Andy Rock

the cost issue is a reason why I feel that open source dev will eventually gain momentum

Brian Kelly

Maximising support for devices means XML, XSLT, ... not writing HTML which NS 3 can understand

Roy Pearce

ns 03 about 6%; msie <4 about 1%; hotjava 0%!

Evelyn Toseland

That's all right, Brian, if your institution supports those things.

Andy Rock

if you can run UINX and Mozilla for free, and your costs need to be low, why would you pay MS for their stuff?>

John Holman

Brian - why would you need to deliver xml etc to the browser? isn't the point of xslt etc to allow different versions for different devices?

Brian Kelly

I agree with Elaine that you have to make a decision.I am in discussions with JISC about the processes for defining the level

Roy Pearce

Andy, do you mean mozilla or netscape?

Andy Rock

depends on which netscape we're on about, lol.

Brian Kelly

hi John, yes but you'll be sending XHTML & CSS which some old browsers won't support properly.

Andy Rock

6 is practically Mozilla anyway, isn't it?

John Holman

Brian - why not send html adapted to the browser?

Evelyn Toseland

John - using server solutions?

Roy Pearce

Andy, not sure but mozilla holds up better than ns6 on my pc

Brian Kelly

Keeping things simple, focussing on old browsers will, quite simply, mean that you can't develop the type of solutions which many users expect these days!

Andy Rock

I think they're based around the same engine.

Andy Rock

I can hardly talk; I still use IE

Andy Rock

Lol

John Holman

ah, ok, maybe one criterion for acceptable browser is that it can cope with XHTML, for Brian's reason

Elaine Bloss

and it's the users expectations that are driving the development of the browsers forward

Evelyn Toseland

Some users.

Roy Pearce

how about standards conformity? where's the gospel on this for non-old browsers?

Brian Kelly

Note to Evelyn - in a JANET environment, it would be possible to provide solutions on the network, so they aren't needed locally (cf Athens which is a centralised authentication service)

Evelyn Toseland

As long as ppl are accessing over Janet, Brian?

Brian Kelly

The W3C gospel is that old browsers are broken and that we should be providing the standards stuff - XML, XHTML, CSS, XSLT

Andy Rock

personally, I believe Netscape sticks to the standards rigidly. which is sometimes the problem.

Brian Kelly

WHAT- Andy?Netscape have broken every standard in sight :-(

John Holman

Brian - in the past such gospels have failed (think OSI networking, X400 etc) in the face of missing products

Andy Rock

which version are we talking about?

Andy Rock

sorry, I tend to mean version 6 when I talk about Netscape.

Brian Kelly

Hi John, yes but I'm talking about standards in which there are interoperable solutions available.

Roy Pearce

Brian, reference for ns misdemeanours?

John Holman

Ok - in the face of popular products (e.g. old browsers) that don't support the desired standards (e.g. IP)

Brian Kelly

Have we reached another point where there are distinct views?Shall we move on?(Will reply to Roy)

Elaine Bloss

as time is pressing, yes please

Ralph Weedon

OK

Evelyn Toseland

yes.

Brian Kelly

Roy, I was referring to Netscape's view of standards in the past.I don't know what AOL Netscape will do in the future.I've read that they are moving out of the browser market.

Brian Kelly

--------------- (4) Lack of IT support --------------------

Evelyn Toseland

mmmmm

Roy Pearce

Brian, mmm, can't see that aol will stick with browser product.

Brian Kelly

We want to do innovative stuff, or wide ranging stuff, or stick will the current stuff, but we haven't got the IT support.What do we do?

Evelyn Toseland

Learn to do it ourselves?

Brian Kelly

I'm assuming that we are all busy enough as is!

Emma Templeton

There is a lot of that going on just now Evelyn

Iain Middleton

If we do it badly enough, someone'll notice and pity us...

Elaine Bloss

That's been CDNTL's general way of sorting it out

Evelyn Toseland

I hope so, Iain, but it hasn't happened yet;)

Brian Kelly

Are there extra resources we can be making use of?

Ralph Weedon

Staff Development???

Evelyn Toseland

There's lots online but you need hours to find things. A directory would help

Jenny Niven

Probably, it's finding the time to locate those resources though

Brian Kelly

How about student effort?How about providing projects for use by the many MSCs in Internet technologies that are now available?

Evelyn Toseland

Yes Ralph!

John Holman

Student supervision requires support also

Ralph Weedon

Good Idea, needs someone to take this forward though

Elaine Bloss

Student effort is good but what about when the students leaves

Ralph Weedon

Agreed, student projects can require support and resources

Brian Kelly

I was thinking about student projects exploring the issues, rather than delivering solutions.

Brian Kelly

So, can you develop a solution using XML and XSLT which can be accessed by a range of current browsers?Let a student project fid the answer

Ralph Weedon

OK, but who then delivers the solutions?

Brian Kelly

If the project provides the approach is feasible, then we develop it / buy it for ourselves.

Ralph Weedon

UMM ....

Elaine Bloss

Which then comes back to an issues of resources

John Holman

I think the costs are mostly in development and long term support - not initial investigation

Brian Kelly

Another issue is development for ourselves.Is there any scope in job exchange, for example?

Andy Rock

I agree

Ralph Weedon

Can you say more on this Brian?

Evelyn Toseland

Brian, anything about staff development would be good.

Evelyn Toseland

Job exchange as in secondments?

Brian Kelly

There are various professional bodies for Web developers, e.g. WoW (no URL to hand)

Andy Rock

I think that the power of self teaching is very underrated, especially by ourselves

Brian Kelly

Secondments is one possibility

Andy Rock

by ourselves, I mean our own perceptions of what we can do

Elaine Bloss

But knowledge sharing even within institutions could be encouraged

Evelyn Toseland

Can I ask, how many here are self-taught?

Brian Kelly

I suspect there may be advantages in closer liaison with Computer Science departments.

Andy Rock

[puts hand up]

Evelyn Toseland

I am.

Brian Kelly

Me too

John Holman

Brian - certainly true for us

Emma Templeton

yeap

Elaine Bloss

Me

Roy Pearce

Brian, wow is at www.joinwow.org

John Holman

yep

Ralph Weedon

Partly

Iain Middleton

aye

Andy Rock

I learn virtually everything I need to know from the web or researching what I need to know

Brian Kelly

What magazines, books, courses, etc would you recommend?

Roy Pearce

is there much contact between compsci and comp centres? we were once a single dept. now como centre is part of the library.

Evelyn Toseland

Lynda Weinman!

Brian Kelly

I get Web techniques, Internet Works, Internet Magazine, all of which are useful.

Jenny Niven

Andy - I'd add colleagues to that list

John Holman

Roy - we have informal contact and good agreement on technical strategy as a result

Evelyn Toseland

She did (does)some brilliant stuff on graphics for web.

Andy Rock

Yes, definitely. I learn so much just from the people in the room I work in.

Evelyn Toseland

Internet Works is good.

Brian Kelly

I've heard the Netskills courses are good (nb. I used to work for them).

Andy Rock

We bounce each other's ideas around and get five opinions

Roy Pearce

mags - see webdeveloper.com

Andy Rock

Lol, Brian.

Evelyn Toseland

And Web-support, Brian - that's been my most helpful resource (smarm)

Andy Rock

I trawl newsgroups.

Andy Rock

so much in there. You just have to learn to filter the spam as you read

Brian Kelly

As well as mailing lists and newsgroup, should we use other fora?

Elaine Bloss

Newsgroups have been a good source of info for me

Evelyn Toseland

Email groups in general. Webd.

Roy Pearce

oops, mag is web techniques

Ralph Weedon

Yes, have done netskills courses, they are good but not many alternatives?

John Holman

I learn a lot (in technical areas) from mailing lists for open source developments etc

Evelyn Toseland

Not too struck on netskills.

Jenny Niven

The bells outside are telling me it's 2pm. Are there any more burning issues to discuss? We can always continue in the discussion room if people need to leave

Brian Kelly

For example, how about a regular online chat, with a variety of experts facilitating discussions?

Evelyn Toseland

Yes please!

Andy Rock

Sounds good

Elaine Bloss

Yes that would be very helpful

Jenny Niven

Brian - that sounds great

Brian Kelly

I can stay for 10 mins or so.

Roy Pearce

see www.webtechniques.com

Iain Middleton

Oh yes...

Ralph Weedon

OK, thanks

Jenny Niven

Would people like to continue with experts in the VLS?

Evelyn Toseland

Yes please.

Roy Pearce

Jenny, yes please.

Andy Rock

Ok

Emma Templeton

Yes

Elaine Bloss

Yes

Ralph Weedon

Yes

Evelyn Toseland

I have to go cook a duck! Thank you very much, Brian et al.

Brian Kelly

Jenny, have you got a way of contacting everyone?I advertised on a couple of JISCmail lists.

Brian Kelly

One final comment.

Andy Rock

Iíve just been informed that Iím late for a team meeting! sorry, everyone, I have to go. speak to you soon:-)

Brian Kelly

Next year's Institutional Web Management Workshop will be at Strathclyde in June.I'd like to use that as a forum for addressing issues raised today.

Jenny Niven

sorry, lost connection briefly

Evelyn Toseland

Hope to get there.

Roy Pearce

Iíve enjoyed this. Blush, blush -first time I've visited a chat room for ages. bye everyone.

Evelyn Toseland

Bye and thanks.

Brain Kelly

In Belfast in June, we agreed to use technology such as this to discuss issues which should be covered.I'd like to continue a debate on this topic using an online chat somewhere.

Jenny Niven

Brian - thanks for hosting another great discussion

Elaine Bloss

yes, thanks Brian

Jenny Niven

I hope to see you all in the discussion room for continued debate

Jenny Niven

Brian - yes we can contact everyone

John Holman

Jenny - how to get there?

Jenny Niven

Click on community, then discussion rooms

Emma Templeton

Yes thanks Brian and jenny at the VLS for hosting this interesting session

Jenny Niven

The room you're after is Web Development & Design

John Holman

Thanks all .. bye

Jenny Niven

Bye for now

Ralph Weedon

Many thanks Brian and Jenny

Iain Middleton

Thanks Brian, thanks Jenny, and everyone else. Bye!

 

LEGAL DISCLAIMER: Whilst every effort has been made to ensure the information in this communication is accurate we cannot accept responsibility for any action, legal or otherwise, based on this material.