LEGAL DISCLAIMER: Whilst every effort has been made to ensure the information in this communication is accurate we cannot accept responsibility for any action, legal or otherwise, based on this material.

Brian Kelly

Would you like to introduce yourselves.  I'm Brian Kelly, UK Web Focus - an advisory post to the UK HE & FE community on Web developments.

Jenny Niven

Jenny Niven, member of the VLS team

Adrian Tribe

I'm the Web Editor at Birkbeck, University of London.  BTW, we are about to advertise for a Web Developer to join us!

Nicol Ferguson

Nicol Ferguson, Assistant Project Officer in VLS Team at RGU

Damon Querry

Damon Querry, Web Development Officer, University of Newcastle upon Tyne. I work in the Registrar's Office and in the University Computing Service.

Helen Ashton

Helen Ashton, courseware developer and Teaching Fellow at Heriot-Watt University.

Brian Kelly

What salary for your Web Editor post?  And how long do you expect them to stay if it's a low salary scale?

Ian Sealy

Ian Sealy, Web Developer at the Institute for Learning and Research Technology at the University of Bristol.

Heather McKiggan-Fee

Heather McKiggan-Fee, Research Fellow on the SHEFC-funded MAPPING project.  I designed the project website.

Heather McKiggan-Fee

Oh yes, University of St Andrews

Shaun Allan

Shaun Allan, web developer University of Sunderland (in middle of an almighty revamp!)

Marie-Laur Bouchet

say Marie-Laure, Nottingham Trent Uni library - in charge of Web pages and electronic resources

Chris Whincop

me - courseware developer, ex university and FE lecturer, now freelance

Brian Kelly

Aren't all Web sites in the middle of a revamp??

Ralph Weedon

Ralph Weedon, Internet Copyright Officer, University of Strathclyde.

Shaun Allan

indeed Brian ;)

Adrian Tribe

Are you asking me Brian?  The Web Developer post will be an AR Grade 2.  Not enough I know, but...

Ralph Weedon

I also work for the JISC Legal Information Service

Jim Everett

Jim Everett, Open Learning Manager, Stevenson College

Jenny Niven

Hi Rachel

Rachel Harris

Hi, all.

Jim Everett

just as a matter of interest, is this chat going to be archived?

Jenny Niven

It will be, yes

Helen Ashton

Archiving will be useful - this all moves very fast!!!

Jenny Niven

Is everyone ok with the archive being placed in the discussion room?

Rachel Harris

Yes, Jenny

Helen Ashton

Yes Jenny, fine with me

Adrian Tribe

Yes, Jenny, no problem.

Brian Kelly

Ralph, are there any legal implications about the archive?  Is Jenny's request sufficient?

Chris Whincop

Jenny: no problem with archiving

Ralph Weedon

Yes, fine with me

Heather McKiggan-Fee

Yes, archiving is fine by me.

Ralph Weedon

I am not a lawyer and cannot give professional advice but ...

Brian Kelly

Jenny, archiving is also fine by me.

Ralph Weedon

As long as people are aware that the discussion will be archived

Ralph Weedon

Then probably it's fine.

Ralph Weedon

People have the option to leave ... hope they wont

Brian Kelly

Thanks Ralph.  There are now 15 participants.  I'll remind people from time to time about the transcript archives.

Heather McKiggan-Fee

If you want more space for typing comments, increase your screen resolution - that way you can type twice as much before the box runs out.

Jim Everett

unfortunately I need to go to a meeting just now so archiving would be wonderful

Jenny Niven

Ok Jim, hope to see you in the discussion room

Brian Kelly

Thanks for the tip heather.  Note that I'm using the ActiveX client.  I type my messages in a Notepad window, and can then copy and paste them.  I don't think you can  do this with the Java client.

Heather McKiggan-Fee

Another bonus is that the chat window is also larger, so you can see more of the discussion at once.  But have a larger data entry box is a real advantage!

Jenny Niven

Hi David

David Robinson

hi all

Rachel Harris

Brian, I'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts on open source vs licensed solutions...

Brian Kelly

Hi Rachel.  Will discuss this in a bit.  First the preliminaries.

Brian Kelly

-----------------------  START OF MEETING -------------------------------

Brian Kelly

It's now 1pm on Thursday 2 August 2001.  Welcome to the VLS chat on Web Developments.

Brian Kelly

Today's discussion should last for an hour.  It will only be a success if people participate actively - so please air your views and don't just lurk.

Brian Kelly

As this is a real time chat there is unlikely to be time to give considered response.  So feel free to be controversial, disagree with others - although please don't flame.

Brian Kelly

We've had the introductions.  For the record I'm Brian Kelly, UK Web Focus - an advisory post to the UK HE & FE community on Web developments.

Jenny Niven

Hi Emma

Brian Kelly

NOTE to Emma - Hi, we've just started.  Can you introduce yourself.

Emma Templeton

Hi Jenny, Hello to everyone else

Brian Kelly

Note that a transcript of the discussion will be archived and made publically available.

Brian Kelly

BTW my suggested topics for today's chat is at http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/web-focus/events/online/VLS-aug-2001/

Emma Templeton

I work for the Robert Gordon University Virtual Campus developing online courses

Brian Kelly

Thanks.

Brian Kelly

hi Iain.  Can you introduce yourself

Brian Kelly

Proposition 1 - Web developers should be making use of W3C and related standards and should avoid proprietary solutions.  Would you agree or disagree?

Brian Kelly

Before accusing me of making a 'motherhood and apple pie' statement that no-one could possible disagree with, remember that your user community is probably more interested in functionality rather than standards - and interesting functionality is often based on vendor-specific proprietary features :-) Also compliance with standards can be difficult - current tools may not support them, there will be training implications, etc.

Brian Kelly

What are your views?

Helen Ashton

Doesn't this depend on your intended audience?

Chris Whincop

I agree with the proposition

Jenny Niven

Agreed Helen - you'll never be able to please everyone also

Iain Middleton

hELLO (he says in traditional caps locked style!) - I'm Iain Middleton, Web Editor for The Robert Gordon University

David Robinson

I think standards are important however annoying as they make us developers think of all viewers and not just a majority

Ralph Weedon

In some cases, for example VLE's solutions are often a bit of both, proprietary and customised

Adrian Tribe

I think we should strive to use standards-based solutions where possible, but recognising that sometimes we'll

Marie-Laur Bouchet

doesn't it depend if you are developing a VLE for internal use - wouldn't proprietary stds be ok then?

Jenny Niven

Hi Bryan

Adrian Tribe

have to use proprietary solutions to achieve what we want.

Helen Ashton

I don't think there is one answer to this. Some times what you are trying to do requires that you break away from standards...

Jenny Niven

Hi Mike, Phillip and Rebecca. We've not long started would you like to introduce yourselves?

Ralph Weedon

Whether or not a VLE is for internal use, if the standards make sense, why not use them?

Helen Ashton

Other times the breadth of the audience is more important and so standards rise above vendor-specific issues...

Brian Kelly

Also note that there will be a public transcript of this discussion.

David Robinson

standards can involve increase in development time as they often involve the moving and reposition of pages

Chris Whincop

for internal use, yes, proprietary is fine, to an extent, but if you want to recycle, move to other platforms, not get tied in...

Mike McConnell

Hi, I'm Mike from the University of Aberdeen, where I'm Web Manager

Shaun Allan

standards are fine but sometimes the speed of technology "take up" can leave committees (W3C,etc) in their wake

Brian Kelly

Helen and Marie-L seem to be saying that proprietary solutions are ok for local use.  I would disagree.  What may be internal today, may be used by others tomorrow.  Companies merge.  So do Universities

Adrian Tribe

Or vice-versa Shaun - which browsers support some of the accessibility-related features of CSS2?

Shaun Allan

good point

Philip Adams

Sorry I am late, I could not find the door. I am looking after the web pages for De Montfort University library. Making them more useful is a key preoccupation right now.

Helen Ashton

Brian: Not necessarily, but it is a matter of weighing up the priorities...

Jenny Niven

Hi Ffinlo

Marie-Laur Bouchet

you're right in a long-term view Brian, but isn't the problem with non-adherence to standards that people don't have time and want a quick solution?

Brian Kelly

I would agree with Adrian.  There are many examples of standards which are ahead of the game e.g. SMIL, SVG are standards, but widespread support isn't there yet.

Shaun Allan

Brian! issue detention ; )

Jenny Niven

Hi Catherine

Brian Kelly

yes Maire-L, the time and resources issue is a factor - but don't forget the resources needed to move from a proprietary to open solution in the future.

Adrian Tribe

We're trying to educate our Web Maintainers about the relevant standards, but being realistic in our expectations of what they will actually do!

Brian Kelly

Also I suspect that many people here will be aware of these issues, but many other Web developers won't be and will find themselves getting sucked into proprietary solutions.

Helen Ashton

Ah yes, definitely agree there Brian!

Iain Middleton

I think that institutions need to have confidence that standards actually suit their needs - and their way of doing things. Sometimes it's easier to take a blank slate and start there, rather than trying to adapt something else which may not map onto existing ways of doing things very obviously

Chris Whincop

has anyone here developed for AICC or SCORM compliance yet? Or are these 'standards' still proprietary?

Brian Kelly

SO were is the hardcore stick with Microsoft /Macromedia cos they are cool advocates!

Brian Kelly

What is AICC and SCORM

Helen Ashton

Don't get me started on Microsoft!!!

Brian Kelly

BTW SVG is Scalable Vector Graphics and SMIL is Synchronised Multimedia Interchange Language - important new standards for elearning applications.

Adrian Tribe

A public-sector body is in a better position to "enforce" standards adherence I think, due to e-government guidelines, disability laws, etc

Brian Kelly

Ahh the e-Government guidelines.  I've something to say about them.

Ralph Weedon

Yes. The new Special Educational Needs and Disability Act should be noted!

Jenny Niven

Hi Mandy

Chris Whincop

this glossary has AICC and SCORM links: http://www.brandon-hall.net/glossary/

Mandy Bentham

Hi All

Adrian Tribe

Go on then Brian...!

Brian Kelly

Version 3 of the UK Government's e-Government Interoperability Framework (e-GIF) is now out for comment. (e-GIF) is now out for comment.

Damon Querry

Often us web types are forced into working with proprietary solutions because when someone actually starts talking to us it's a done deal. The institution's bought it and we've got to get along with it. Education needs to take place higher up, in mgt.

Adrian Tribe

Thanks for that - I've not seen that.

Brian Kelly

Compliance with v2 is (I think) mandatory for public sector bodies - which may include Universities.

Ralph Weedon

Brian, where is the e-GIF to be found?

Damon Querry

Their eyes need opening to this debate too.

Jenny Niven

Hi Michelle

Brian Kelly

E-GIF stuff at  www.govtalk.gov.uk/, and select 'What's New' to see it.

Ralph Weedon

Thanks Brian

Adrian Tribe

No Brian, I don't think we're obliged to comply with the e-gov stuff yet - it's still very much focused on central and local government, isn’t it?

Michelle Dosantos

Hi Jenny - is everyone here for the discussion on Web Development?

Jenny Niven

We are yes. It's been going for about 15 mins

Brian Kelly

Unfortunately many local and central authority Web sites fail to conform with the guidelines.  I've recently surveyed the 18 shortlisted candidates for a national award - and all had HTML errors, most failed the Bobby accessibility test, etc. etc.

Michelle Dosantos

Ah right thanks.  It's my first time here.

Mandy Bentham

Is the bobby test seen as the standard then?

Jenny Niven

Hi Andy, currently discussing standards in web development

Brian Kelly

Hi Adrian.  Whether HE has to comply with E-GIUF regs is uncertain.  A colleague of mine has been attending E-GIF meetings.  I'll try and follow this up later.

Andy Price

Thanks Jenny, Hi Brian.

Adrian Tribe

OK Brian - that would be useful to know.

Mike McConnell

It's hard to enforce rigorous accessibility guidelines on one hand, and encourage participation by diverse authors on the other

Brian Kelly

bobby isn't a standard - but is a useful tool which gives an indication of compliance with W3C WAI standards.

Mandy Bentham

thanks

Brian Kelly

hi Mike - I agree that things get difficult if you wish to devolve responsibility to content to a wide audience.  Let's follow that thread.

Jenny Niven

Hi Keith

Keith Brooke

Hi

Ralph Weedon

Is training and staff development relevant here?

Brian Kelly

Topic 2 - What type of tools are required to develop rich Web services?

Mike McConnell

Well, often you can get people on board, and that's a good thing, but their knowledge of HTML is very basic

Brian Kelly

and training and staff dev. issues

Heather McKiggan-Fee

If I appeared to leave, it's because my &*%£&%* computer crashed.  Since this discussion is far too technical for me, I'm

Heather McKiggan-Fee

going to sign off and just read the transcript.  Cheerio everyone!

Iain Middleton

If/when e-GIF regulations become compulsory, how do you think they will be implemented? Who will be the "responsible person" at institutions - will it just be a diktat dropped from on high onto people without any real ability to ensure cross-campus compliance?

Jenny Niven

Bye for now Heather

Mike McConnell

however, as they work within departments, etc., having them on board is invaluable for spreading the word

Philip Adams

We may need to look at editing software and how it is used. it is easier me to encourage people to add things through a web-based form into ROADS than to teach them how to edit pages using vi. So I get more compliant pages and they get simpler tasks. Both win.

Brian Kelly

many Web authors will be happy to comply with standards, but be let down by the tools which suck them into use of proprietary extensions, flawed architectures, etc.

Mike McConnell

It is often useful to go along with someone who is making initial errors and change their behaviour incrementally

Jenny Niven

Brian - interesting question. Hoping you'd be able to advise on that

Jenny Niven

Hi Kylie

Rachel Harris

How do you do that - change behaviour that is?

Chris Whincop

"the tools which suck them into use of proprietary extensions, flawed architectures" - I think Brian means FP. If so, I'd agree, but licensing agreements often dictate use of certain products within large institutions, and web teams are not the decision ma

Helen Ashton

Help them see WHY they should change?

Brian Kelly

Philip Adams has said it for me.  Rather than looking at front Page vs Dreamweaver issues, we need to be providing tools which focus on letting authors provide content, with the way in which this is provided (HTML, XML, CSS, etc.) being left to an application.

Mike McConnell

well, if you offer support at first and not criticism, people tend to trust what you're saying

Rachel Harris

But it's not really feasible to do that on a large scale, sounds like the right tools is the best option.

Brian Kelly

Has anyone looked at use of Blogger-type tools?

Helen Ashton

Why do you think that is not feasible Rachel?

Michelle Dosantos

Does anyone know if there is an open source tool similar to Dreamweaver?

Rachel Harris

One to one guidance is very time consuming.

Helen Ashton

It doesn't have to be one to one though...

Adrian Tribe

Brian, that's why we want to introduce a Web Content Management System that will allow our information providers to do just that, without having to know about the technical details of authoring.

Mike McConnell

Tools is an ideal solution if you're starting from a fairly rational perspective. If, however, you have a large, mature site run by a large number of authors, incremental change is probably the best you can hope for

Brian Kelly

I agree with Mike that changing the culture from devolved control over HTML pages to CMS may be difficult.

Emma Templeton

Adrian this is what we are implementing for RGU's online learning environment

Maurice Crockard

How does CMS work with search engines externally?

Brian Kelly

So I think you need to start with a small-scale project - and demonstrate the benefits.

Mike McConnell

Emma, do you anticipate any resentment from established University authors?

Rachel Harris

Do you have any examples of this, Brian?

Brian Kelly

hi Maurice - with proper use of a CMS, the external view of resources can be OK.  but you'll need to avoid use of query strings - which may be the default in some CMSs.

Adrian Tribe

We will be insisting on a CMS that allows us to have a phased introduction.

Maurice Crockard

Rachel : we're trying it out on a small Sports department development using PHP and my SQL

Emma Templeton

well not many will be established authors on the university web site they are lecturers putting up course content so perhaps?

Adrian Tribe

On the potential "resentment" issue, we are going down this route to widen considerably our base of content providers, many of whom are non-technical.  We won't necessarily get existing Web maintainers to adopt it.

Marie-Laur Bouchet

if authors/lecturers are given lots of information as to why and how things are being done in a certain way

Brian Kelly

An example of a possible pilot use of a CMS would be use of a Blogger type tool such as Manilla (99 pounds for site licence for HE).

Marie-Laur Bouchet

then people will be less hesitant/critical of what we are asking them to do

Rachel Harris

Perhaps everyone could post further details of using CMS in the discussion room...

Brian Kelly

manilla is used to create Web logs.  It can be used as a remotely-hosted authoring tool, with a simple interface.  Behind the scenes it can do interesting stuff with standards (XML, XML-RPC, RSS, etc.)

Rachel Harris

so that they could be used to convince others of the benefits?

Jenny Niven

Great idea, Rachel

Brian Kelly

We hope to look at this tool ourselves in the near future (there is a month's evaluation copy available).  Anyone fancy joining me in an evaluation?

Rachel Harris

Sounds interesting

Emma Templeton

i could be interested brian will contact you after the discussion.

Chris Whincop

Does indeed

Brian Kelly

Thanks Emma.  BTW I guess we can all make contact afterwards by checking the membership details for this group - which should have email addresses, if you've provided them.

Rachel Harris

I had thought blogger's were just online diaries, but obviously not.

Brian Kelly

Shall we move on to a discussion on open source solutions?

Brian Kelly

----------------------- OPEN SOURCE --------------------------------

Jenny Niven

Hi Lynn, we're about to discuss open source solutions

Brian Kelly

Hi Lynn.  Can you introduce yourself.

Brian Kelly

Note that a transcript of the discussion will be archived and made publically available.

Brian Kelly

Proposition 2 - Belief in open standards does not necessarily mean that you have to go down an open source route.

Brian Kelly

Open source software can be expensive in terms of technical support.  And Universities may fund it difficult to retain and recruit good technical staff.

Brian Kelly

The situation is likely to be worse in other sectors such as FE colleges - and least we tend to have good Postgrads around that we can employ from time to time.

Brian Kelly

What do you think?

Rachel Harris

Staff retention seems like a major issue to me

Brian Kelly

For the record there are now 24 participants

Adrian Tribe

Yes, that's true Brian.  Balancing the immediate and long-term costs of any decisions like this can be difficult.

Michelle Dosantos

surely the benefits of open source would outweigh the cost issues.

Adrian Tribe

We will probably go down the open source route for our CMS, but in-house support will be crucial to this.

Brian Kelly

Staff recruitment and retention is a major problem for project initiatives (e.g. JISC, other UK, EU,m etc.) as staff would be appointed on short term contract.

Iain Middleton

Long term benefits vs budgetholders short term thinking!

Adrian Tribe

Our new Web Developer post will be tied partly to this, but we will have to make sure all our Web staff know what to do.

Michelle Dosantos

everyone seems to be caught up in an 'instant gratification' syndrome.  If something doesn't pay off immediately we drop it

Adrian Tribe

I say "all" - by which I mean the other 2 of us!

Brian Kelly

But Michelle open sourceness is not a guarantee of success.  there are many examples of open source bits of code which have failed to gain momentum.

Chris Whincop

oh dear. I love things that are free, and would love FE and HE to embrace Open Source - Linux, Apache, PHP, MySQL, but it doesn't seem likely for the reasons you mention, plus politics and the ‘nobody got fired for buying IBM (etc.)’ philosophy.

Shaun Allan

thats VERY true Michelle

Brian Kelly

Which word processor do you use Chris?

Michelle Dosantos

granted brian but its giving everyone a lot of freedom to be creative.  IT has long suffered under the image that it is not...

Michelle Dosantos

creative and that people just churn out the same systems and code.  I think that is now changing and even designers want...

Michelle Dosantos

to get in on the act.

Chris Whincop

Brian: right now, TexEdit - it's free. ;)

Brian Kelly

Who pays for designers to get in the act of open source solutions?

David Robinson

Brian   I use word but his is forced on me due to communicating with academic staff

Michelle Dosantos

ah but who benefits?  I encourage all of my designer and developers alike to work on projects outside of their normal roles

David Robinson

University Standards

Brian Kelly

Sorry that you are forced to communicate with your colleagues :-)

David Robinson

The point i am making that is not always open to choice

David Robinson

Like a lot of the software we use

Chris Whincop

Brian: I suspect we agree - development money comes from companies who plan to make a profit.

Jenny Niven

Hi Jose

Jose Casal-Gimenez

Hi! Hope that did not arrive too late!

Brian Kelly

In examples like Apache a quality open source product has been developed and it has sufficient high profile for there to be business models, benefits for its developers, etc.  However this won't necessarily be the case for every application.

Iain Middleton

Critical mass...

Brian Kelly

As Web systems (IT systems) become more sophisticated / complex, there will be a need to make a significant investment to develop the code, documentation training, etc.

Michelle Dosantos

Right, so there do need to be some standards.  an agreement for coherence.

Brian Kelly

The key is interoperability and standards so end users and organisations can make there chose of open source vs licensed solutions.

Jenny Niven

Hi Sean

Brian Kelly

I should also add that within a University context, there is also the issue of the future funding for developers on short-term contracts.

Sean Brady

Hi jenny, greetings from Liverpool

David Robinson

I think the day you are looking Brian is still very far away !!

Iain Middleton

And as systems become more complex, somehow they have to be made simpler if we're going to broaden participation... it depends whether we're talking about powerful tools for experts or simple ones which let "real people" do what they need to.

Chris Whincop

Larry Wall has a thing or two to say on the issue of Open-Source: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/larry.html

Brian Kelly

Hi Ian, no complex tools which hide their complexity from end users - like the CMS we poke about before.

Chris Whincop

..basically, Open-Source is a Good Thing, but then again he would, wouldn't he? ;)

Jose Casal-Gimenez

I don't think that it is too far away, David. We are already moving towards those systems and the main problem is the resources. Not many developers around the Universities

Adrian Tribe

Precisely Jose!

David Robinson

I don't think it is just a resource problem Jose

Michelle Dosantos

Right Jose but give any good developer a couple of weeks with a new language or program and he'll be tapping away like he's and expert

Brian Kelly

David, etc, can you give examples of open source projects you're involved in.

Adrian Tribe

On CMSs, it has often been pointed out that a half million pound investment in a packaged commercial product will still leave you with hefty support and development costs on top of that!

Michelle Dosantos

I'm currently working on a combination of Perl and Sql called DSQL...

Jose Casal-Gimenez

We are been asked to developed complex systems to facilitate the work of other that do not have enough experience/training. To develop those systems we need very strong commitment from the whole institution (change of culture?)

Chris Whincop

Adrian: very true

Brian Kelly

I should mention http://www.opensource.ac.uk/.  Perhaps it would be useful to register open source projects there.

David Robinson

We are developing an integrated environment in the University which involves the use of PHP and it has come into play here

Chris Whincop

Thanks for the link, Brian

Sean Brady

I suspect the size of Institution is crucial at Liverpool Hope 5000 + students our 'home brewed' Module communication centre' attracted a good deal of use

Brian Kelly

Having just looked at it, there's not a lot there.  Ian S. - do you know about this?

Jenny Niven

We'll post a listing of all the resources from this chat into the discussion room

Brian Kelly

I should say something about IMS and e-learning stuff in the context of open source.

Maurice Crockard

<aside> Are you all fast typists? Or anyone using voice-input? Perhaps these chat rooms are for younger folk! </aside>

David Robinson

Maurice i am typing but then i was brought up in chat rooms (lol)

Michelle Dossantos

Damn, 2pm gotta run.  Thanks for the interesting discussion everyone hope to speak with you again soon.

Jenny Niven

Bye for now Michelle

Brian Kelly

I've had that JISC's view on VLEs is that IMS compliance will be mandatory.  I also got the impression that providing this will be difficult, and it may only happen if there is a large company behind it.  I did put the view of open source advocates when I heard this.

Sean Brady

<A HREF=http://hopelive.hope.ac.uk/hopelive/hopelive.htm>The entry to out MCCs</A>

Brian Kelly

before U all go, see you next Wednesday.

Jenny Niven

As Michelle pointed out it is coming up for 2. Are there any more burning issues to discuss?

Ralph Weedon

Brian, Richard is preparing a Briefing note on this

Chris Whincop

Here's an IMS/SCORM link: http://www.newstrolls.com/news/dev/downes/column000523_2.htm#sec4

Jenny Niven

Many thanks to Brian for leading this discussion

Ralph Weedon

Agree, difficult to make IMS mandatory ... they are not complete, in draft etc

Chris Whincop

yes, thanks brian :)

Adrian Tribe

Good one Brian!

David Robinson

Cheers Brian

Sean Brady

Thank you Brian, remember there's a welcome at Hope for you

Brian Kelly

A final URL - see http://www.cetis.ac.uk/ for info on IMS.

Jenny Niven

We look forward to seeing you all in the discussion room

David Robinson

Is anyone going to ALT-C next month

Brian Kelly

Thanks everyone.  See you soon.

Marie-Laur Bouchet

thanks Brian

Iain Middleton

Cheers Brian, and I hope to contribute more next week when I've learned how to type!

Helen Ashton

David, Hoping to go to ALT-C, yes...

Jose Casal-Gimenez

Thanks Brian

Ralph Weedon

Thanks Brian, hope to log on next week Bye!

David Robinson

If anyone is going it would be nice to meet up there

Adrian Tribe

See y'all.  Bye!

Jenny Niven

bye all

Jenny Niven

bye

 

LEGAL DISCLAIMER: Whilst every effort has been made to ensure the information in this communication is accurate we cannot accept responsibility for any action, legal or otherwise, based on this material.